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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Rolepgeek]

I'm not intimately familiar with the bible, but I don't believe there's any part where it says 'don't bother trying to heal the sick; God will take care of it'. If you take religious texts literally things tend to go poorly. Some people say that's because taking any metaphor literally tends to go poorly; other people say it's because religions tend to be products of their times, and we're past those times.

I mean, if you look at those mandates the way a lot of people seem to, in that they were made for the times and only apply nowadays if it's to do with morality and closeness to god, rather than, say, 'eat shellfish and you'll probably get sick and die'. Or 'STDs spread a lot faster when people aren't faithful'. Or 'stop screwing around with that guy's stab wound you're making it worse you incompetent fuckwits'.

Gender roles can be debated as to whether they're right and true and proper blah blah blah. Mostly I object because saying 'it's counterproductive to the worldview I want to create' can be used by anyone, and isn't all that valid of a criticism, since traditionalists can say that the progressive "muckery regarding gender roles and relationships...sexual practices"...you see where I'm going with this?

Also, sustainability? Isn't there a whole movement around being the stewards of the earth?

Religion isn't anything but how people interpret it. If they interpret it in a way that leads to Bad Stuff, it will lead to Bad Stuff. If they interpret in a way that leads to Good Stuff, it will lead to Good Stuff.

[wierd]

No, Frumple is more or less correct.

The prohibition is not against "medicine" exactly, but against "Sorceries", which when translated from the original greek the new testament was written in-- is written with the word "Pharmakeia"

The intent is that using medicinal substances is prohibited.

Modern apologists will distort this to "mood altering" substances, like hallucinogens, used for divination purposes. (Like salvia divinorum, peyote cactus, and psilocybin mushrooms...) However the original word used, covers that, *AND* therapeutic medicine.


Taken in full context, the bible-advocated modality of human life is that of a nomadic tribesman, that lives outside of cities, and does subsistence agriculture in the absence of advanced medicine.

Naturally, the morality it extols is centered around that kind of existence.

[Bohandas]

Taken in full context, the bible-advocated modality of human life is that of a nomadic tribesman, that lives outside of cities, and does subsistence agriculture in the absence of advanced medicine.

That's the impression I've gotten. It's part of the reason I'm so blithely antitheistic.

If that's what he wants on earth that's probably what it's like in heaven too, the upshot of which being that even on the longshot offchance I'm wrong the difference in uality of life between Heaven and he lake of fire and brimstone probably isn't too big. They would at the very least in this case be closer to each other than either are to where I am now.

Well, yeah. People doing shitty things in the name of religion is bad.

But I get annoyed when people bring up people doing shitty things in the name of religion and say it's the religion's fault, but when people do good things in the name of religion, it's because they were good people anyway. And vice versa, sometimes, for people supporting religion. Some people will do shitty things regardless of religion, some people will do shitty things because of it. Some people will do good things regardless of religion, some people will do good things because of it.

The same could be said of Bureaucracy and politics, Bohandas. Stamping it out isn't really a viable option.

Actually that time I merely meant that psychic mediums, homeopathy, and traditional chinese medicine need to be stamped out

[Vilanat]

In the Talmud there is a reference to an herbal medicine book written by Solomon that Hezekiah later destroyed completely out of existence (Pretty easy to do since there was probably only a single copy of every book back then). the Talmud considered it among the good things Hezekiah did since that book drove people away from relying on praying to god for their health. the irony is that Hezekiah himself died of a disease.

Whether Solomon did compose a book listing his herbalist knowledge is irrelevant (Probably wrong though). the moral is pretty obvious.

[TheBiggerFish]

... PTW.

[Arx]

... PTW.

All hope abandon, ye who enter here.

Modern apologists will distort this to "mood altering" substances, like hallucinogens, used for divination purposes. (Like salvia divinorum, peyote cactus, and psilocybin mushrooms...) However the original word used, covers that, *AND* therapeutic medicine.

That's not the impression I get from a quick search and the first modern apologist argument that came up.

Sure, it mentions the hallucinogens, but it also covers a lot more.

Further, Strong's Concordance lists it as 'medicine, drugs or spells', 'magic, sorcery, enchantment'. If we look at the 'full context', the Bible forbids 'magic, sorcery, enchantment' repeatedly, but not so much medicine.

[wierd]

(I am at work at the moment, so cannot give citations until later. will update in about 8 hrs.)

There are numerous mentions where faith in the creator is given as the primary source of treatment that the ill or infirm should seek. The bible does go out of its way to discourage and condemn magical practices, such as drug induced hallucinations for divination purposes. (in fact, divination in general.) However, it also frequently puts apothecaries in the same bag as diviners, witches, and magicians. Remember, the oath of hippocrates was not a thing yet, and apothecaries frequently sold preparations that did very nasty things. (like outright poisons, toxins formulated to cause abortions, etc.)

 

[Graknorke]

toxins formulated to cause abortions

Wasn't that a thing the bible advocates at some point? Something about priests inducing miscarriages on cheating wives.

Found it, Numbers 5:20-24

[Rolepgeek]

Taken in full context, the bible-advocated modality of human life is that of a nomadic tribesman, that lives outside of cities, and does subsistence agriculture in the absence of advanced medicine.

That's the impression I've gotten. It's part of the reason I'm so blithely antitheistic.

If that's what he wants on earth that's probably what it's like in heaven too, the upshot of which being that even on the longshot offchance I'm wrong the difference in uality of life between Heaven and he lake of fire and brimstone probably isn't too big. They would at the very least in this case be closer to each other than either are to where I am now.

Well, yeah. People doing shitty things in the name of religion is bad.

But I get annoyed when people bring up people doing shitty things in the name of religion and say it's the religion's fault, but when people do good things in the name of religion, it's because they were good people anyway. And vice versa, sometimes, for people supporting religion. Some people will do shitty things regardless of religion, some people will do shitty things because of it. Some people will do good things regardless of religion, some people will do good things because of it.

The same could be said of Bureaucracy and politics, Bohandas. Stamping it out isn't really a viable option.

Actually that time I merely meant that psychic mediums, homeopathy, and traditional chinese medicine need to be stamped out

What falls under 'traditional chinese medicine'? Because acupuncture, for all intents and purposes as far as I can tell, works. Making weird remedies with the bones of endangered animals, less so.

Though that's just me being curious, not actually trying to challenge anything.

I didn't know that, Graknorke. Interesting.

And wierd, that's basically what I was saying. If someone interprets the bible knowing it was originally written for a completely different lifestyle, and adapting it as would be necessary to modern life, it becomes much more palatable to modern sensibilities.

[Ghills]

And wierd, that's basically what I was saying. If someone interprets the bible knowing it was originally written for a completely different lifestyle, and adapting it as would be necessary to modern life, it becomes much more palatable to modern sensibilities.

This is one of the big reasons the LDS church is so emphatic about modern prophets and personal revelation. The Bible is a great spiritual text, but it was written for completely different people who had very different levels of scientific knowledge, culture and political structure. Applying it directly to modern life is just going to cause problems. While the spiritual principles carry over, modern prophets and personal prayer are needed to understand how to apply those principles to modern life.

Like with the medicine/sorcery issue.  'Medicine' back then was basically all wishful thinking, regardless of who a sick person went to. They had no concept of bacteria, no idea what the inside of the body looked like, no standardized education.  Typical 'medical' treatment frequently included invoking local gods or spirits; witchdoctor/shaman/priests were commonly also healers/herbalists.  Apothecaries were more likely to harm than help, right up through the Enlightenment, except in very straightforward cases.  It's hard to imagine it from a standpoint of modern, standardized education and clinical drug trials, but I can see good reason for 'Stop going to the sorceror-barber-herbalists in random villages' given the knowledge and culture at that time.

[Bouchart]

In the Talmud there is a reference to an herbal medicine book written by Solomon that Hezekiah later destroyed completely out of existence (Pretty easy to do since there was probably only a single copy of every book back then). the Talmud considered it among the good things Hezekiah did since that book drove people away from relying on praying to god for their health. the irony is that Hezekiah himself died of a disease.

Whether Solomon did compose a book listing his herbalist knowledge is irrelevant (Probably wrong though). the moral is pretty obvious.

Off the top of my head I think the bible mentioned that Soloman studied plantlife/botany.

[Fenrir]

What falls under 'traditional chinese medicine'? Because acupuncture, for all intents and purposes as far as I can tell, works. Making weird remedies with the bones of endangered animals, less so.

There have been studies of acupuncture and the evidence for it is inconclusive at the moment. It might help pain. Might. Traditional Chinese medicine, including acupunture, is unified by qi and a few other things that are kind of made up. The underlying assumptions are pseudoscience, if that.

[Orange Wizard]

Praying to God is pointless if you're not actually trying to do things yourself

e.g. "Dear God, my car has a puncture, please jack it up and change the tyre"

[Rolan7]

Not to be contrarian, but is that Biblically supported?
I know yous aren't Biblical literalists, but still.  If we have to change the tire/tyre ourselves, or do the heart transplant or whatever, it seems like God is hiding in the gaps, so to speak.  And isn't the same sort of God that the Israelites believed in.

[redwallzyl]

Praying to God is pointless if you're not actually trying to do things yourself

e.g. "Dear God, my car has a puncture, please jack it up and change the tyre"

how did you manage to puncture Tyre?