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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 562710 times)

Frumple

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5235 on: February 25, 2016, 08:05:54 pm »

You could probably think of it as sorta' like that, sure. Just with Q managing the process.
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Quartz_Mace

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5236 on: February 25, 2016, 08:14:18 pm »

how your soul would end up in heaven
Oh, that's easy. Christ promised the resurrection of the body. That phrase is repeated through the NT. We will be given new bodies to live in the new heavens and the new Earth.
The whole "souls going up to heaven" thing is a popular misconception that the Bible doesn't support at all.
Where does the bible say that? What verses/lines?(is that what you call them? I don't speak Bible very well as I think it's more like guidelines and I'm annoyed by people who interperit it literally, but I know how to look things up.)
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5237 on: February 25, 2016, 08:19:29 pm »

1 Corinthians has a vaguely useful passage on it.

Unfortunately for the most part it's not a straight-up thing, but it's pretty clearly implied. I can also check my creeds and confessions book for some more concrete stuff if you like.
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Quartz_Mace

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5238 on: February 25, 2016, 08:30:12 pm »

Thank you, no need to do that; I can search some more in my own time. That actually does make quite a bit of sense. I've been pondering the concept of an afterlife recently, and I was wondering what limitations would be present, as it would not be possible to have literally everything be possible. In other words, there must be some general "rule set" to work with and this seems to acknowledge that.
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Catmeat

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5239 on: February 27, 2016, 05:34:24 am »

The Egg
By: Andy Weir
 
You were on your way home when you died.
It was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off, trust me.
And that’s when you met me.
“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”
“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point in mincing words.
“There was a… a truck and it was skidding…”
“Yup,” I said.
“I… I died?”
“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies,” I said.
You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked. “Is this the afterlife?”
“More or less,” I said.
“Are you god?” You asked.
“Yup,” I replied. “I’m God.”
“My kids… my wife,” you said.
“What about them?”
“Will they be all right?”
“That’s what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”
You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Or possibly a woman. Some vague authority figure, maybe. More of a grammar school teacher than the almighty.
“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way. They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. Your wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation, she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”
“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”
“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”
“Ah,” you said. “So the Hindus were right,”
“All religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.”
You followed along as we strode through the void. “Where are we going?”
“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”
“So what’s the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate, right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”
“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.”
I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic than you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part of yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.
“You’ve been in a human for the last 48 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of your immense consciousness. If we hung out here for long enough, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point to doing that between each life.”
“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”
“Oh lots. Lots and lots. An in to lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around, you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 AD.”
“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”
“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”
“Where you come from?” You said.
“Oh sure,” I explained “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there are others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there, but honestly you wouldn’t understand.”
“Oh,” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, I could have interacted with myself at some point.”
“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own lifespan you don’t even know it’s happening.”
“So what’s the point of it all?”
“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”
“Well it’s a reasonable question,” you persisted.
I looked you in the eye. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”
“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”
“No, just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature and become a larger and greater intellect.”
“Just me? What about everyone else?”
“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you and me.”
You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”
“All you. Different incarnations of you.”
“Wait. I’m everyone!?”
“Now you’re getting it,” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.
“I’m every human being who ever lived?”
“Or who will ever live, yes.”
“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”
“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too,” I added.
“I’m Hitler?” You said, appalled.
“And you’re the millions he killed.”
“I’m Jesus?”
“And you’re everyone who followed him.”
You fell silent.
“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “you were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”
You thought for a long time.
“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”
“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”
“Whoa,” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”
“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”
“So the whole universe,” you said, “it’s just…”
“An egg.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.”
And I sent you on your way.
But you already know this.. dont you?!
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5240 on: February 27, 2016, 05:40:45 am »

Read that one before. It's a vaguely interesting idea, I guess.
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Catmeat

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5241 on: February 27, 2016, 05:53:28 am »

I thought Id make my first post here a good one.
You guess? I am you? Thats not vaguely interesting. Its beautiful and deep, maybe if you consider it to be true for a day or two you begin to treat others nicely, at least I do.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5242 on: February 27, 2016, 06:29:30 am »

It doesn't really strike me as particularly deep. S'just "you're everyone, so be nice to yourself", which is completely out of left field.
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Catmeat

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5243 on: February 27, 2016, 07:01:52 am »

What would strike you as deep then? An all knowing future seeing god who creates angels without will that betray him then creates humans that betray him? Becomes wrathful and removes their immortality? because they ate a fruit that made them sentient and realise that god just wanted to have his perfect kitset garden to watch? Maybe you havnt thought it through to understand what depth actually is?
Sounds snarky... yes...
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5244 on: February 27, 2016, 07:20:05 am »

What would strike you as deep then? An all knowing future seeing god who creates angels without will that betray him then creates humans that betray him? Becomes wrathful and removes their immortality? because they ate a fruit that made them sentient and realise that god just wanted to have his perfect kitset garden to watch? Maybe you havnt thought it through to understand what depth actually is?
Sounds snarky... yes...

It's more that the story you posted is pretty well-known than it not being an interesting idea. Depth is dependent on breaking the mold of conventional thought, so novelty is all-important. Kind of like how Christian theology, at least the non-weird, widely known parts of it, doesn't seem deep at all to you. By that same virtue, a copypasta that seemed deep long ago loses its charm in our enlightened, well-memed day.

Come to think of it, being deep and being funny have a lot in common.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 07:23:20 am by Harry Baldman »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5245 on: February 27, 2016, 01:28:09 pm »

Remember; ancient egyptian writing has been found complaining that every story has already been written and no one can be original anymore, and also all these uppity youngsters need to learn how to behave and stop ruining the moral fabric of society.

The same problems plague humanity era after era.

Also, Catmeat; you need to show some respect.
Its beautiful and deep, maybe if you consider it to be true for a day or two you begin to treat others nicely, at least I do.
"You don't like the thing I like? That just means you're a dick who doesn't get it!"

Not cool dude. This discussion absolutely requires respect for the participants involved, even if you can't hold their religion or viewpoint in particularly high esteem. Rolan7 epitomizes this; as much as you can tell they dislike/are suspicious of Christianity in specific and religion in general, they have nonetheless been highly courteous.

Though, yeah, Harry, from what I've read/pondered, humor developed as a signal of intelligence. Which is why a well-timed pun is far better than one you have to set up; it requires quick thinking, and it's hard to falsify if it's dependent on reaction/processing speed. The idea of wisdom is about unconventional ways of looking at patterns, which is sorta like learning, and there's an obvious reason for that to be more common.

Finally, in response to the actual meat of Catmeat's point; "'tis better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all."

Plus, perhaps even God is not strong enough to escape Causality/Fate. In order for him to see that future, it must occur that way. He is trapped in an endless loop of loss, tragedy, and retroactive horror at his actions. And he can never escape, because time is nigh-meaningless for him. There is no way to move on.

Or there is and he already has and we're just farther back in the timeline than that. *shrug*
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Arx

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5246 on: February 27, 2016, 01:38:02 pm »

The story is interesting, but it has a significant element of "...so?" to it. Fundamentally, there is no difference between 'everyone is me, but there's no way for us to know' and everyone being their own person from our perspective.

It is thought provoking, and I like the message (it's fundamentally the same as an African cultural concept, ubuntu, which translates as something like 'personhood' or 'humanity', or possibly 'our shared humanity' - it's difficult to quantify), but it's not... shocking or profound per se.
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Quartz_Mace

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5247 on: February 27, 2016, 01:58:08 pm »

Really shouldn't we just treat other people well because it's the right thing to do? Can't you just empathize with other people without literally being them? It certainly is an interesting idea, though.

Even if we're not all incarnations of the same being, we still share the experience of being human, and we interact with each other here in the physical world. We exchange ideas and experiences together in a way that ultimately connects us all.
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TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5248 on: February 27, 2016, 03:28:22 pm »

Essentialy, yes. There's no need for a justification to be nice to other people and help them in whatever way you can. Even if you are a huge atheist, you still have to realize that ultimately, its better to use your life to the benefit of the entire species rather then your own pleasure.

So ye, be nice to people, have empathy, forgive your enemies, love others before you love yourself. In the end, it'll be better for you, even if you aren't part of some ur-being that encompasses all of humanity. Its also a goal envisioned in several interpretations of buddhism, IE, the greatest happiness is when the happiness of others becomes your own happiness, so help people be happy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 03:31:21 pm by TempAcc »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5249 on: February 27, 2016, 07:12:42 pm »

Essentialy, yes. There's no need for a justification to be nice to other people and help them in whatever way you can. Even if you are a huge atheist, you still have to realize that ultimately, its better to use your life to the benefit of the entire species rather then your own pleasure.

So ye, be nice to people, have empathy, forgive your enemies, love others before you love yourself. In the end, it'll be better for you, even if you aren't part of some ur-being that encompasses all of humanity. Its also a goal envisioned in several interpretations of buddhism, IE, the greatest happiness is when the happiness of others becomes your own happiness, so help people be happy.
I mean, you don't really have to realize that, really. I mean, I think it's true, but nihilistic hedonism is totally a thing.

I don't agree with all that last part, though. Love yourself so that you can love others. The workers at the soup kitchens need to eat too. Put on your own mask before helping your fellow passengers.
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