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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 562576 times)

McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6615 on: October 02, 2019, 09:35:00 pm »

Yeah I mean most people call the thing "founded" on the Old Testament Judaism.  There is something founded on the teaching of Christ, which has a background of Judaism, but is different, that was promoted by the Apostles (including Paul).  Then there is the stuff that happened with the Roman Empire, the middle ages, the Reformation, and more recently the Great Awakening.

The point most people cite as the "founding" of Christianity is the Pentecost immediately after Jesus ascension.  The accounts of this event in Acts are pretty unique: it was a spreading of the story of Christ and his resurrection, simultaneously, to a multinational, multi-ethnic, and multi-gender group.  This is essentially unprecedented in all of religion: the 120 or so people who received the tongues of fire included women, "sinners", educated, laypeople, etc.  No "select group".  The initial message that reached thousands (if 3000 were "added to their number" then way more than that heard it) was done in multiple languages, simultaneously - no people group was therefore able to say "hey look we got it first!"

In a historical context this is radical - even contrasted with the Old Testament, where usually there was only a single "anointed" person at a time (Moses, the Kings, the Prophets).  Instead you get 120 people "anointed" by the Holy Spirit all at once.  They then spread it out essentially across the entire known world (in contrast to the specificity of the Israelite people group in the Old Testament).  It was markedly an inclusive message, not an exclusive one.

So regardless of what history did with it after that event, that initial event was about the most inclusive thing ever, something arguably never seen before or even since.  That event and the first sermon in Acts 2 - it's really a "for everyone" thing.  That's why it was called the "good news" - so even if you think it was made up, that's the most astonishingly progressive thing to make up you could imagine.

That's one of the reasons why I feel so sad when I hear people today complain (and often rightly so) that "Christianity" has become bigoted and exclusive and hateful.  Because it definitely didn't start out that way - with everyone sharing everything, in unity.

Side note:  I'm still... struck by the fact that there is this idea that the Old Testament God is different from the New Testament God.   If you take the OT and NT as a whole, not as a set of different stories, there is always this common thread underneath all the "fire and brimstone" of "Hey humanity (and often, specifically Israel), you keep trying to earn your salvation.  If you want to try and earn it, fire and brimstone is what that looks like. That doesn't work people - so I have a plan and I will redeem you."  Then Jesus comes, and does redeem all of humanity.  Not under the law (which is fire and brimstone) but under grace.  That's the story that stirred the hearts of those initial 3000 people. It wasn't a story about "God is going to conquer Rome" or "God is going to give you a comfortable life."  It was merely the story that God has done all the work to get people in a restored relationship with God and ultimately conquered death itself, so we don't have to worry about "did we do enough good?" while we're alive.

Not having to worry about that is, some of us think, a great freedom. Not to justify any action we may take, but to not be fearful that our mistakes will irredeemably destroy our relationships with other people or, ultimately, God.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6616 on: October 02, 2019, 10:00:55 pm »

For what it's worth, iirc like the one time jainism manged to get a notable foothold in a country, shit under its purview still got its conquest on. Can't remember if it was explicitly using the religion as a pretext or just going about things in spite of it, though.

Still, religious pacifism seems to last more or less exactly as long as it takes to get into power... if that. Moral of the story is keep your religion way the fuck away from the levers of secular government, I guess.
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Magistrum

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6617 on: October 02, 2019, 10:07:35 pm »

The point most people cite as the "founding" of Christianity is the Pentecost immediately after Jesus ascension.  The accounts of this event in Acts are pretty unique: it was a spreading of the story of Christ and his resurrection, simultaneously, to a multinational, multi-ethnic, and multi-gender group.  This is essentially unprecedented in all of religion: the 120 or so people who received the tongues of fire included women, "sinners", educated, laypeople, etc.  No "select group".  The initial message that reached thousands (if 3000 were "added to their number" then way more than that heard it) was done in multiple languages, simultaneously - no people group was therefore able to say "hey look we got it first!"

Do you think miracles are possible, and do you think all the ones described at the bible happened? Since that matters a lot for the outlook we get on this.

Because the Pentecost stuff was very much a Jewish thing, and they only preach to Judah and Samaria until later so...

About the side note: It was very much about "god is going to conquer rome". Most the people thought the Messiah was going to be king on earth. That's why he is of Davidic lineage. Everyone was expecting for a Messiah at that time. That was so popular that not one, but multiple showed up at same time. Our Jesus is the one that stuck. Some of them got a small army and got wrecked right after. One is even mentioned in the bible in Acts 21:38.
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smjjames

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6618 on: October 02, 2019, 10:21:06 pm »

John the Baptist is one that also stuck, though that seems to have been in part because he happened to be the brother/uncle/cousin+mentor of Jesus and the fact that he played a role in Jesus's life.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6619 on: October 03, 2019, 06:46:55 am »

About the side note: It was very much about "god is going to conquer rome".

Jesus' teaching was indeed in a culture where people were looking for that "conquering" king.  I think you really have to stretch, though, to say that Jesus teaching was about that kind of kingdom.

That's what makes it interesting that Jesus teaching "stuck" - it was such a different teaching.

Quote
... they only preach to Judah and Samaria until later so...

Not really - the fact that Paul and his crew were able to set up churches in so many gentile places was testament to the fact that those people from Pentecost really did go back to their homelands and put down the seeds of those churches.  Many congregations were already there when Paul visited.

Regarding miracles: yes they can occur, from small to astonishing.  I'm not an expert on the study though, but I'm sure you can find scholarly articles out there about what miracles are and aren't, and perhaps why we don't see them today the way they were depicted in the first-century literature.
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Magistrum

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6620 on: October 03, 2019, 07:38:33 am »

Oh, sorry about that, not Jesus' teachings: The messiah prophecy was about military success. Tough some people also expected Elijah or some prophet too, in addition to a king.

In the pentecost event only disciples of christ  receive the blessing. They were all Israelites. Accordingly, since it was Pentecost, the people there to hear them were also Israelites and proselytes, not regular foreigners, but Jewish converts.

Presumably Jesus found it easier to explain only what changed to jews in the very short time he had on earth, as opposed to everything from the start to foreigners.

Realistic speaking, Jesus was a jew and he never planned for gentiles to be converted. He was an Israelite Messiah to Israel, and you can see that in the early congregation by their rejection of uncircumcised (non-proselyte) gentiles. They were jews and the message was for jews.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6621 on: October 11, 2019, 12:27:52 pm »

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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6622 on: October 11, 2019, 01:29:57 pm »

I think posting a youtube link without explanation of what it is or some sort of summary for people that don't want to watch through a video is internet cancer :P
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6623 on: October 11, 2019, 02:01:09 pm »

Oh, sorry. The video talks about why religion shouldn't be used to justify government actions and why even non extremist religious people might not be the best in positions of power.
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6624 on: October 11, 2019, 02:06:11 pm »

I like that the toxicity "graph" at 10:50 is literally a slippery slope

I do think that irrational beliefs inherently justify irrational behavior, but that doesn't mean that belief in the talking honey badger (his example) is only different from violent extremism by degree.  He's blurring the lines... like, very literally, at 10:45.  Those are real lines.

So I strongly disagree with that point.  Religion doesn't inherently lead to violence.  Violence-filled holy books which condemn nonbelievers do.  Not every religion is like the Abrahamic ones.

Edit: most probably, but not all.
Edit2: Oop I didn't see the Ameripol discussion this probably came from, guess I need to catch up
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:09:18 pm by Rolan7 »
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thompson

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6625 on: October 11, 2019, 04:50:47 pm »

I can understand why religion is such a great source of frustration for many in the US, but it's important to keep things in context. I'd argue that the #1 issues in politics at the moment is corruption and the revolving door between congress and lobbyists. The motivation there is pure self-interest, no ideological conviction required. This undermines the integrity of the entire system and fuels serious social problems like the opiod crisis. The most consequential thing religious politicians might do is overturn Wade vs Roe, which would lead to abortion bans in some states. That's a significant consequence, but it's only really possible because the link between the 4th amendment (or was it 8th) and abortion was tenuous at best.

The key qualities of leadership in my view are integrity and wisdom. Religion really shouldn't come into it unless you're forced to choose between two idiots. Which happens, of course.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6626 on: October 11, 2019, 05:22:20 pm »

I can understand why religion is such a great source of frustration for many in the US, but it's important to keep things in context. I'd argue that the #1 issues in politics at the moment is corruption and the revolving door between congress and lobbyists. The motivation there is pure self-interest, no ideological conviction required. This undermines the integrity of the entire system and fuels serious social problems like the opiod crisis. The most consequential thing religious politicians might do is overturn Wade vs Roe, which would lead to abortion bans in some states. That's a significant consequence, but it's only really possible because the link between the 4th amendment (or was it 8th) and abortion was tenuous at best.

The key qualities of leadership in my view are integrity and wisdom. Religion really shouldn't come into it unless you're forced to choose between two idiots. Which happens, of course.
Yes, corruption is the issue, and religion is used as a tool for said corruption. I agree that ideology isn't required, but it does help those in power stay in power because "don't question God"
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smjjames

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6627 on: October 11, 2019, 05:42:19 pm »

I can understand why religion is such a great source of frustration for many in the US, but it's important to keep things in context. I'd argue that the #1 issues in politics at the moment is corruption and the revolving door between congress and lobbyists. The motivation there is pure self-interest, no ideological conviction required. This undermines the integrity of the entire system and fuels serious social problems like the opiod crisis. The most consequential thing religious politicians might do is overturn Wade vs Roe, which would lead to abortion bans in some states. That's a significant consequence, but it's only really possible because the link between the 4th amendment (or was it 8th) and abortion was tenuous at best.

The key qualities of leadership in my view are integrity and wisdom. Religion really shouldn't come into it unless you're forced to choose between two idiots. Which happens, of course.
Yes, corruption is the issue, and religion is used as a tool for said corruption. I agree that ideology isn't required, but it does help those in power stay in power because "don't question God"

I haven't heard 'don't question God' being used as an excuse in the political corruption that's the #1 issue atm. That kind of excuse is more likely to be used by those within the religious institution itself and those that claim divine mandate.
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thompson

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6628 on: October 11, 2019, 05:43:19 pm »

I respectfully disagree. Religion aids corruption insofar as it keeps people talking about religion rather than the real issue of corruption. When a religious person hears someone criticising a politician for being religious they aren't going to interpret that as a concern about corruption, but rather as religious bigotry. This will inspire them to show solidarity with the politician. Focus on the issues and don't let them shift the narrative. Never allow yourself to become someone else's "useful idiot".
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6629 on: October 11, 2019, 06:44:07 pm »

I respectfully disagree. Religion aids corruption insofar as it keeps people talking about religion rather than the real issue of corruption. When a religious person hears someone criticising a politician for being religious they aren't going to interpret that as a concern about corruption, but rather as religious bigotry. This will inspire them to show solidarity with the politician. Focus on the issues and don't let them shift the narrative. Never allow yourself to become someone else's "useful idiot".
Thank you
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