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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 64 (28.1%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 8 (3.5%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 102 (44.7%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 54 (23.7%)

Total Members Voted: 224


Pages: 1 ... 461 462 [463] 464

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 345895 times)

methylatedspirit

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6930 on: December 12, 2020, 07:03:23 am »

All it would have to do is erase the entire universe and then start anew with different parameters.
Then presumably prevent anything that would lead to the proof of any and all theorems by intelligent life, because (I can't cite anything for this, but I think it makes sense) any logically-consistent, axiomatic system that would allow for the proof of any theorem would allow for this question to be posed. Any form of formal, rigorous treatments of math cannot exist in this new universe. Not even our universe's Euclid can exist in that universe, because he treated geometry formally, with axioms, and managed to prove at least one theorem within those axioms, even if his notation is "primitive" by our standards.

It's an "assassinate everyone who knows" kind of conspiracy, but on the universal scale.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6931 on: December 12, 2020, 07:05:32 am »

Ain't nothin' wrong with that. If you're a god, at least.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6932 on: December 12, 2020, 07:09:30 am »

Or to put it differently, if fermat's last theorem was something entirely different, working off different priors and means of interaction, but still called the same, it could be falsified!

You don't even need god or new math for that, just someone willing to insist that 2+2=69 is actually fermat's last theorem. It's kinda' like insisting a goodness that includes mass intanticide or bioterrorism is still goodness, and not just something entirely unlike it you're still calling the same thing. Good ol' religious language, in other words :P
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6933 on: December 12, 2020, 07:34:00 am »

Or to put it differently, if fermat's last theorem was something entirely different, working off different priors and means of interaction, but still called the same, it could be falsified!

But an onmnipotent (and all-knowing, but it's sorta implied from the first) god knows every possible proof in (assuming multiple universes) every possible universe. In his room, there's a gigantic book with every theorem and all its proofs in every possible universe in every possible logical system. Maybe our universe's Fermat's Last Theorem is theorem #2619819871715132 in that book. How would he try and disprove theorem #2619819871715132, then, if in his book, it says that it's true? I suppose he could just define it out of existence, removing the associated universe, logical system, and all the theorems within in the process. Oh, and every universe, logical system and all associated theorems in which Fermat's Last Theorem can exist. Our universe, if it was Fermat's Last Theorem he wanted to remove.

Shit, I think I just came up with Paul Erdos' idea of The Book, but a more unfiltered version where all the elegant proofs are just mixed in with the inelegant ones. The first million pages in my Book must just be proofs for 1 + 1 = 2.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 07:37:46 am by methylatedspirit »
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6934 on: December 12, 2020, 09:10:34 am »

The trouble with these "If god is omnipotent, can god do something self-contradictory" questions is that the question itself is self-contradictory.  It's trying to assert that formal logic is not "omnipotent" because formal logic can't make true equal to false.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6935 on: December 12, 2020, 03:13:39 pm »

I think that they are logically inconsistent questions rather than self-contradictory.  They rely on a collapsed ontology where the conditions of human perception (mathematics here specifically) are ascribed to the objects that they are used to perceive.  There is no reason aliens (or angels for the religious) - let alone god themselves - will view the ultimate objects of reality through specifically human structures.

It is to confusedly attribute the rose of the rose-coloured glasses as the rose of the snow.

It is certainly within the purview of the Abrahamic god to make humans constituted otherwise. Hence yep, an omnipotent god can do all of the above, and without needing to change 'reality' - other than human cognition.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6936 on: December 12, 2020, 04:03:08 pm »

Ah yes, I was looking for "logically inconsistent" and couldn't think of the phrase... thanks!
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6938 on: December 17, 2020, 10:31:55 am »

Woo! :D
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6939 on: December 17, 2020, 11:47:20 am »

There's a lot of interesting stuff in there. 

Religious intermarriages are increasingly common, which is a nice sign of tolerance!  Good on religious people!  Even between denominations, that represents a lot of mutual respect (and an encouraging lack of "fire and brimstone" belief).

"The Disappearing Social Benefit of Religious Participation?" is a good section too, though it's phrased a little negatively.  It looks like unaffiliated people are no longer as cut off from their communities, reaching near-parity with churchgoers when it comes to sociability and civic involvement.  I would guess that's due to widespread cell phones and online social networking, but increased tolerance of nonreligious people help too.  Reaching equality by improvement is good news!

Related, "42 percent of Americans have a close social connection with someone who is religiously unaffiliated", up from 18%.  That's huge.  Having a friend or loved one of any class makes it a lot harder to stereotype that class.  And while atheists are still a vulnerable minority in America, I think there's a lot of benefit in having good relationships with religious people.  It works both ways.

A surprising number of people "believe in God" at all: 87%.  53% without any doubts, which is wild.  But I'm not really bothered by that - the rising number of religiously unaffiliated people is a lot more important to me.  My fears about religion come from its powerful institutions and their moneyed involvement in politics, not individuals with spirituality. 
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Eschar

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6940 on: December 17, 2020, 12:14:22 pm »

What they said.
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TheSteppeWolf

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6941 on: December 17, 2020, 10:36:17 pm »

That's in America.

Here in Mongolia, after the revolution in 1990-1992 that removed hammer and sickle, Buddhism has recovered somewhat, from the cultural genocides taken by the People's Republic.

I don't like to swear, but fuck the MPR.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6942 on: January 19, 2021, 11:13:21 am »

I still shudder at the notion the Soviets tried to erase the memory of Genghis Khan

MonkeyHead

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6943 on: January 19, 2021, 11:15:50 am »

I still shudder at the notion the Soviets tried to erase the memory of Genghis Khan

Youd need to kill as many people as he did to even get close to success.
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TheSteppeWolf

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6944 on: January 19, 2021, 11:12:26 pm »

Oh if only it was just that. They also tried to destroy our culture in general and also ethnically cleansed Buryats. Go look it up.
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