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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[MonkeyHead]

Ya it would be ok to take the car as long as you or I pay for any damage and clean up the mess.
Just stealing the car and keeping it isn't ok though.

Yeah, stealing it and keeping it makes it hard to justify the greater good. So, without even realising it, you accept a certain degree of moral relativism. Interesting.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Well it's not theft (as far as I'm concerned) if your giving it back on the condition it was take especialy in a situation like that

[MonkeyHead]

Well it's not theft (as far as I'm concerned) if your giving it back on the condition it was take especialy in a situation like that

The law would still consider it taking without consent, and I would still probably be arrested and tried - though I would consider it worth it, and who would possibly be conviceted in such an extreme scenario?. Again, with the "as far as I am concerned" - that is a relative morality argument, as is including the conditions of its return.

[Orange Wizard]

IMO it's sometimes justified to do a Bad^TM thing if it will prevent a greater evil or achieve a greater good. Not to say it makes the bad thing OK - it's really just making the best of a bad situation.

On the car topic, I would say it's certainly justified. It's still stealing, though. That you did the bad thing for a good cause doesn't change the fact that it was a bad thing. 'Course, you'd want to return it afterwards, reimburse the owner for any damages, and plead guilty if he takes you to court.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Hey, thank you for serving a year in jail to keep me from dieing.
I have nothing more to say about it

[MonkeyHead]

Hey, thank you for serving a year in jail to keep me from dieing.
I have nothing more to say about it

No probs man! Thanks for helping me understand a little more about how those who hold absolute moral views think.

IMO it's sometimes justified to do a Bad^TM thing if it will prevent a greater evil or achieve a greater good. Not to say it makes the bad thing OK - it's really just making the best of a bad situation.

On the car topic, I would say it's certainly justified. It's still stealing, though. That you did the bad thing for a good cause doesn't change the fact that it was a bad thing. 'Course, you'd want to return it afterwards, reimburse the owner for any damages, and plead guilty if he takes you to court.

Oh, of course - it is a silly example, but one I like to use to show how equally silly a hard line "there is never an excuse to do bad things" position actually is.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

((Do note that I'm pretty unique when it comes to this kinda stuff, I'm not sure how many people think like I do))

[Bohandas]

Yes, but contrary to Nietzsche's claim that religion is injurious to society, it can still be seen as doing good. Even if you only view it as a small nugget in an otherwise contemptible sea of hate and bigotry, it does some good.

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

As for the validity of heaven and all that what not, and the concept of a monotheistic, Abrahamic God, I too agree it's exceedingly unlikely.

And if its not true then that by itself makes it a bad thing.

[MonkeyHead]

((Do note that I'm pretty unique when it comes to this kinda stuff, I'm not sure how many people think like I do))

Actually, you'd be surprised - it is very common amongst Catholics. I have discussed this with many, and a few even claimed they would refuse assistance in a stolen car. I wonder how many would actually do that if in that situation.

More worrying though is how many responded with claims that "yes, of course I would" when asked if they would kill me if god ordered it. The implications there are worrying.

[TD1]

* Th4DwArfY1 turns into a gibbering mad man.

ANSWER MY QUESTION! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! ! ! ! ! !! ! !

Yes, but contrary to Nietzsche's claim that religion is injurious to society, it can still be seen as doing good. Even if you only view it as a small nugget in an otherwise contemptible sea of hate and bigotry, it does some good.

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

As for the validity of heaven and all that what not, and the concept of a monotheistic, Abrahamic God, I too agree it's exceedingly unlikely.

And if its not true then that by itself makes it a bad thing.

It doesn't make it inherently bad. It just makes those following it whilst knowing it's wrong intellectually dishonest, but still not bad themselves.

Being incorrect doesn't make a theory bad. Were gravity disproved, and that there's actually no gravitational force, you wouldn't say the "theory" of gravity is bad.

[i2amroy]

And if its not true then that by itself makes it a bad thing.

I'd be willing to ascribe that it's possible for someone to be taught the moral system of a religion without necessarily being forced to ascribe to all of it's tenets. Even if the way a religion believes things happen isn't necessarily true, they work great as moral system carriers, which allows for things that fall into the "good" moral category generally to be carried to more people.

Also what about the whole "lies to children" thing? Arguably, almost nothing that you've learned in science prior to the college level is actually "true", because they are all wrong things we say to allow you to get closer to the actual truth behind the way the natural world works. Does that make it "bad" for us to teach you these things?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I have one question for the 'if god commanded you would you kill me?', have you done anything to give reason or need for me to kill you?

[MonkeyHead]

I have one question for the 'if god commanded you would you kill me?', have you done anything to give reason or need for me to kill you?

That depends on what you would judge as worthy of being killed. I know the point you are making - you don't want it to be a cold blooded murder, and instead want it to be a "justifiable" killing. If your god commanded it, is that not enough, or is it OK to argue the divine on this matter? I have a hard time thinking up anything that would justify such an act though. What would you consider justifies such an action? Again, the "needing justification" strays very close to a relativism rather than an absolutist view.

[Descan]

Did Isaac do anything to give reason for Abraham to kill him, after God commanded it?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Did Isaac do anything to give reason for Abraham to kill him, after God commanded it?

Leading to my second question
If no justification is given will god stop me before I kill you?