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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[penguinofhonor]

Yeah but that was all metaphorical

That's a respectable answer, but I think a lot of people would disagree. There's a good bit of Christian astronomy based around trying to link various historical eclipses to the Crucifixion.

[origamiscienceguy]

Yeah but that was all metaphorical

That's a respectable answer, but I think a lot of people would disagree. There's a good bit of Christian astronomy based around trying to link various historical eclipses to the Crucifixion.

Since Passover happens at a full moon, a solar eclipse cannot be the answer. I believe that it was a miracle that caused it.

[Rolan7]

Ninja'd by Origami.  But I still don't understand.  He did these miracles in front of people then, so why not now?

Basically, history is divided into chunks where different beings of God are interacting with Earth. In the OT, most interaction is with God the Father, with all the smiting and fire and pillars of salt. In the NT, we have Jesus (mostly) in charge, with literal tonnes of food, healing, wine, and dead figs. After the NT we have the Holy Spirit in charge, and he doesn't really do anything particularly flashy.

I sorta like this sort of thing.  It seems very Gnostic to me, though.  It recognizes that the Father and Son have very different natures.  Maybe... aren't even literally the same entity?
Perhaps the God of the old Testament is actually a baddie?

Really though, it's a big deal that Jesus is still alive, even though he's in Heaven now.  I'm still not sure why his campaign of providing mortals with evidence would end.

Well, the reason Jesus fed them all was not to show his power, but to keep them listening to him longer because they wouldn't have to dispece and find food fo themselves.

Matthew 14:15-16 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”

That's a very valid interpretation of that event, good point.  But, he did perform many showy miracles in front of crowds.  He even complained that certain people remained unconvinced.

[origamiscienceguy]

That's a very valid interpretation of that event, good point.  But, he did perform many showy miracles in front of crowds.  He even complained that certain people remained unconvinced.

Can you give references? Most of the miracles I remember, Jesus specifically asks people not to tell everyone about it.

[Rolan7]

Does Matthew 11:21 work?

Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Somewhat related, Mark 16.  Before ascending, he gives grants certain divine powers to all that believe, and then commands those present to prosyletize.

16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Technically he's only empowering believers (implying the disciples, but technically all believers) with the ability to perform convincing miracles.  Then telling them to convince people.

[Orange Wizard]

There are several parts of the Bible where the three persons of God interacted with each other. So this can't be the case.

It's more of a vague general guideline for explaining why God doesn't nuke the gays any more rather than a hard rule. I didn't mean that the persons of God can't interact, just that it's rare to see them doing stuff on Earth at the same time.

...

Yeah but that was all metaphorical

That's a respectable answer, but I think a lot of people would disagree. There's a good bit of Christian astronomy based around trying to link various historical eclipses to the Crucifixion.

It probably wasn't an eclipse AFAIK but that answer was mostly sarcastic. I don't have any answers re: supernatural shenanigans around Jesus' death/resurrection. All bets are off when it comes to something of that magnitude.

...

I sorta like this sort of thing.  It seems very Gnostic to me, though.  It recognizes that the Father and Son have very different natures.  Maybe... aren't even literally the same entity?
Perhaps the God of the old Testament is actually a baddie?
Really though, it's a big deal that Jesus is still alive, even though he's in Heaven now.  I'm still not sure why his campaign of providing mortals with evidence would end.

It's possible that the Father wanted him to stop. Jesus remarks that his power comes from the Father, and that he does his Father's will. It explains the inconsistency quite neatly but brings a weird element of disagreement into the Trinity. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

Also:

Perhaps the God of the old Testament is actually a baddie?

What made you think he wasn't?

[Rolan7]

A better specific example of Jesus doing miracles to convince people would probably be the water-to-wine trick, which convinced the servants who drew the water.  And:

2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom
...
2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Honestly I don't feel like I'm doing a good job showing this.  But I'm still convinced that I'm right, haha...  I've always heard that Jesus went around performing miracles before crowds, I'm just having trouble proving it.

Perhaps the God of the old Testament is actually a baddie?

What made you think he wasn't?

Mostly the fact that so many Christians don't arrive at that conclusion, basically.  Or who maintain that the Trinity act with one purpose.

... I'm still not sure what the Holy Ghost even *is*.

[origamiscienceguy]

Roland, the holy spirit it what God the father sends down to earth to be with every believer. It gives discretion and wisdom. It can also perform miracles.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

As for Jesus wanting to keep his miracles quiet, I have a few examples on the top of my head.

Mark 1:41-45 has Jesus healing a leper, Jesus telly him to keep quiet so that he could continue his ministry. Unfortunately, the leper told everyone and their grandmother, so Jesus left the town.

Mark 5:43 after Jesus raised a dead girl from the dead, he gave a "strict order" to not tell anyone.

[Frumple]

Mostly the fact that so many Christians don't arrive at that conclusion, basically.  Or who maintain that the Trinity act with one purpose.

... I'm still not sure what the Holy Ghost even *is*.

Eh. Many christians wouldn't really know chunks of the bible from a hole in the ground, and draw hugely from the fanfiction anyway. Or deliberately ignore swaths of it (sometimes for the better, heh). Lots of 'em not coming to the conclusion that the christian god is a viciously malicious jackass doesn't mean too much.

And that's not getting into the tautological stuff where the thing could be the most incredibly and unilaterally evil thing in existence and still be considered not a baddie by christians, strictly because of definition. God is Good, even when God is blatantly evil.

[Rolan7]

Roland, the holy spirit it what God the father sends down to earth to be with every believer. It gives discretion and wisdom. It can also perform miracles.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Thanks for the explanation!  I guess I had a very vague understanding, but it's good to hear clarification from an actual believer.

As for speaking in tongues, in Mark 16:17 Jesus does say that all believers will have that power.  He doesn't mention the holy ghost, but there's no contradiction there.

In Mark 16:18 Jesus also promises

16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Which I think is more problematic

I mean, I can speak in tongues.  So can babies, arguably.  Even believers can't drink arsenic and live though.

As for Jesus wanting to keep his miracles quiet, I have a few examples on the top of my head.

Mark 1:41-45 has Jesus healing a leper, Jesus telly him to keep quiet so that he could continue his ministry. Unfortunately, the leper told everyone and their grandmother, so Jesus left the town.

Mark 5:43 after Jesus raised a dead girl from the dead, he gave a "strict order" to not tell anyone.

Those are solid examples of Jesus trying to perform miracles secretly.  Keep in mind, he was pretty much an enemy of the state.
But, he is also said to have performed miracles to convince groups of people.  Why else would he have converted the water to wine?

And besides that, having "signs" follow the apostles and prove their words.  (Also something about... Sorry, sleepy...  70(?) men being granted similar powers and sent out to prosyletize with miracles)

[Arcvasti]

Alright, I think this is relevant to the current discussion:

And He did not do many miracles there[In Nazereth, Jesus' hometown, for context] because of their unbelief.

This plus the above heavily implies J-man didn't flaunt the miracles too much and didn't use them to directly convince people of their divinity.


re: Holy Ghost

Basically, anytime mystical wind or fire is in the Bible, that's Holy Ghost stuff. Wind across the formless chaos, pillar of fire in the desert, tongues of flame at Pentecost, etc.

[origamiscienceguy]

Even with the water-to-wine miracle, it never says that Jesus did it for his own fame, in fact, when his mother tells him that the wine is out, he says:

John 2:4 Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.

So it sounds like he doesn't have a particular desire to turn the water into wine. It sounds like he does it for his mother.

[Rose]

As somebody who wasn't raised Christian, this conversation is bewildering.

Of course Jesus wasn't god. Was he a religious leader? Sure. Did he have a connection with god? Probably. Was he, himself, God? No, of course not.

[Orange Wizard]

Well, he's the Son of God if the Bible is to be believed. He's God if you believe the popular interpretation.

[Bohandas]

I say presumably, because Jesus never actually did anything on a cosmic scale. It was always localised to him - parlour tricks in comparison.

Jesus himself gave the reason for this in Mark 4:12. He spoke in parables and didn't perform cosmic miracles, so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Could you explain what that one means when it's not in riddles?

Oops.

Basically means "I'm not going to make it clear that I'm the son of God because if I did, many people would understand their predicament and ask the Father for forgiveness when they're not supposed to".

So because Jesus has a phobia of offering any proof towards anything

I always interpreted it as meaning that he want's people to burn in hell.