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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Orange Wizard]

Well, basically. God said to Israel that he would give them the promised land, but they still had to go out and fight the dudes who were there first. Abraham (and lots of other guys) were promised children, but they (presumably) still needed to go at it with their wives for that to happen. Jesus promised us that anything we pray for in good faith will be given to us, so it stands to reason that we still need to put the effort in, even if God has a hand in the results.

Long story short, the Bible never advocates laziness.

...

how did you manage to puncture Tyre?

My name's Alexander.

[Fenrir]

Well, basically. God said to Israel that he would give them the promised land, but they still had to go out and fight the dudes who were there first. Abraham (and lots of other guys) were promised children, but they (presumably) still needed to go at it with their wives for that to happen. Jesus promised us that anything we pray for in good faith will be given to us, so it stands to reason that we still need to put the effort in, even if God has a hand in the results.

Long story short, the Bible never advocates laziness.

You can’t be fucking serious.

So let’s assume that people regularly pray for loved ones with terminal illnesses. That’s not hard to believe. Cancer’s a classic, so let’s go with that one. With your assumption, if someone prays for a cancer victim and the victim dies anyway, the supplicant was being lazy and didn’t really give an effort. Now, you’ve got to assume one of a few things.

1. The vast majority of people don’t die from cancer if they receive both treatment and prayer.
2. Most people who pray for cancer victims don’t really try to save a loved one from cancer.
3. Jesus was full of shit.
4. Jesus never actually said that.

Now, 1 is testable. I really doubt you’re going to pick 1, since we might be able to look that one up. If you believe 2, you’re not only wrong, you’re an asshole. Sure, maybe you could explain away a few cases as laziness on the part of the supplicant (and this fact was somehow enough to condemn the cancer victim to suffering and death for some reason), but 1 would still have to be true. 3 is the one I’d go with personally. I’m not sure about 4, since I honestly never did read the bible.

(There are a number of other problems with this, but I don’t want to complicate things too much.)

[TheBiggerFish]

Except that the amount of effort needed to save people from cancer is a societal thing.  So it's not the supplicant, it's the pharmaceutical companies.  And they...Aren't.

[Fenrir]

Except that the amount of effort needed to save people from cancer is a societal thing.  So it's not the supplicant, it's the pharmaceutical companies.  And they...Aren't.

No, you don’t understand.

Jesus promised us that anything we pray for in good faith will be given to us…

Either you get what you want, or you didn’t ask in good faith.

[Rolan7]

I think OW is saying you need to ask in good faith, but also take the necessary steps.  The cancer won't miraculously disappear, a doctor needs to cut it out and the patient has to undergo chemo.  But if you do that, and pray, then God will operate in the gaps to make things succeed.

I mean, it's standard God of the Gaps I think.  Like my fairies, they only exist where we can't yet observe.

[Fenrir]

I think OW is saying you need to ask in good faith, but also take the necessary steps.  The cancer won't miraculously disappear, a doctor needs to cut it out and the patient has to undergo chemo.  But if you do that, and pray, then God will operate in the gaps to make things succeed.

I mean, it's standard God of the Gaps I think.  Like my fairies, they only exist where we can't yet observe.

So 1, then, which means it’s testable, and then you’ve got to explain away every death from terminal illness from before human beings even had medical interventions, and then you’ve got to explain how this doesn’t make god a complete douchbag for killing somebody because someone else didn’t really mean it when they asked for the victim to be spared, and then you’ve got to explain how you can call surgery and chemotherapy “necessary steps” when god can just cure people and he already knows whether they’re going to work but puts the victim through it anyway.

[Rolan7]

Nah, the God of the Gaps (and my fairies) specifically *aren't* testable.  They shy away from scientific identification.
And many Christians believe God IS a "douchebag"...  In human terms (IE, relevant ones).

The main issue is that God is said to have performed flashy, direct miracles in the past.  Which is where my fairies are different from Jehovah...  Fairies have always stayed outside of rigorous observation.  Jehovah is said to have performed dozens of miracles specifically to convert people, but will not do so now.

[Fenrir]

Nah, the God of the Gaps (and my fairies) specifically *aren't* testable.  They shy away from scientific identification.

“God heals cancer victims if you treat them and pray for aid,” is testable. If you pray for someone and treat their cancer and they don’t get better that statement is wrong.

[Rolepgeek]

Milton has a quote about that, I think.

Something about the fall being in the service of the greater good, aka redemption.

Oh yeah, and people go to heaven if they're faithful, so dying isn't actually all that big a deal, and God would know that. That probably helps His calculations on the subject.

Also; blessed are the meek, the poor, the whatever. To suffer for another is the greatest gift. Or something. See: Jesus.

[Orange Wizard]

Okay, yeah, that was poorly explained. My point is that prayer is not a magical helpline. If anything it's more for the psychological benefits of getting things off your chest, so to speak.
If you're praying in God's name, you're basically praying for what God wants to coincide with what you want, which isn't always going to happen. God may want the cancer patient to die, for whatever reason. Which seems like a cop-out seeing as  I just said about Jesus saying your prayers would be answered. Strictly speaking a Christian is praying for God's plan to proceed, because God is good because God is good, so his plan is good as well, and we're praying for good things to happen, so we're praying for his plan to happen. The logic could win a gymnastics competition, but whatever.

It's kinda janky and awkward to explain of three hours of sleep. A fair bit is God of the Gaps stuff like Rolan said.

E: Rolep's point as well is part of it.

...

You can’t be fucking serious.

I choose Option 5: This world sucks and you don't always get what you want.

[Rolan7]

But if you try sometimes you might find...  you get what you need!

Stepping away because I'm arguing a position I don't fully hold, and might be doing a poor job.

[origamiscienceguy]

Jesus' miracles were anything but flashy/showy. Often he told everybody who witnessed them to not tell anybody about them. He is also described as using simple words such as "Get up and walk" rather that, "BEHOLD! I CAN MAKE THIS MAN WALK AGAIN! ARISE MY CREATION!!!" He performed his miracles because he loved them. Which has a cool side effect of making many people like you and some people hate you.

[Frumple]

... the biblical god didn't exactly shy away from flashy miracles, though, which was mostly what was being referenced.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Jesus also promised to come back with a sword sticking out of his mouth.

You only think that's symbolism.

[Fenrir]

@Rolepgeek
Theodicy isn’t my main point, though I did mention it.

Okay, yeah, that was poorly explained. My point is that prayer is not a magical helpline. If anything it's more for the psychological benefits of getting things off your chest, so to speak.
If you're praying in God's name, you're basically praying for what God wants to coincide with what you want, which isn't always going to happen. God may want the cancer patient to die, for whatever reason. Which seems like a cop-out seeing as  I just said about Jesus saying your prayers would be answered. Strictly speaking a Christian is praying for God's plan to proceed, because God is good because God is good, so his plan is good as well, and we're praying for good things to happen, so we're praying for his plan to happen. The logic could win a gymnastics competition, but whatever.

It's kinda janky and awkward to explain of three hours of sleep. A fair bit is God of the Gaps stuff like Rolan said.

E: Rolep's point as well is part of it.

...

You can’t be fucking serious.

I choose Option 5: This world sucks and you don't always get what you want.

I think I got whiplash from that 180.

Look, if you want to claim that you meant the complete opposite thing from what you said in your last post because you worded it badly, I’ll accept that and move on. I won’t believe you, but I’ll pretend like I do because debates like this don’t work if you don’t assume good faith like that.

Okay, yeah, that was poorly explained. My point is that prayer is not a magical helpline. If anything it's more for the psychological benefits of getting things off your chest, so to speak.
If you're praying in God's name, you're basically praying for what God wants to coincide with what you want, which isn't always going to happen. God may want the cancer patient to die, for whatever reason. Which seems like a cop-out seeing as  I just said about Jesus saying your prayers would be answered. Strictly speaking a Christian is praying for God's plan to proceed, because God is good because God is good, so his plan is good as well, and we're praying for good things to happen, so we're praying for his plan to happen. The logic could win a gymnastics competition, but whatever.

Okay, so prayer only works if you’re praying for something god was going to do anyway. If you get the same outcome by praying as you do by not praying, prayer does fuck all. Which is fine, I wouldn’t expect god to take input from us anyway, but don’t go telling us that god gives us everything we ask for if we’re being sincere and not lazy.

I choose Option 5: This world sucks and you don't always get what you want.

You don’t get to dodge like that. You told us that Jesus said we get what we want as long as we aren’t being lazy. Which means that you either get 3 or 4; either Jesus outright lied or he never actually said that our prayers would be answered (I think “he was being metaphorical,” is the go-to explanation for that, which isn’t always implausible I guess).