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Author Topic: Dwarven Economy  (Read 6125 times)

Dark_Author

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Dwarven Economy
« on: January 27, 2015, 05:03:46 pm »

I read the newest DF talk with Toady and it mentioned the Dwarven Economy several times.  That said, I'm still a little confused as to whether or not it's planned to make a comeback.  At certain points, it sounded like they eventually want to implement it again, but towards the end, they said something (can't remember what) that suggested it may not come back.

So, do you guys know if that feature is planned to make it back into the game at some point?
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Baffler

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 05:16:13 pm »

The short answer is that it's coming back when the framework is in place, but in a way that's quite different from the old implementation to address the serious problems it had.
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Dark_Author

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 05:21:07 pm »

Thanks Baffler!  I wasn't a player when the old economy was in place, but I''ve gathered that it was pretty faulty.  Still, having an economy within the fortress could be really interesting, especially if dwarves earned pay for their jobs and had to buy their items.  Not really sure how that would work, but I can see a lot of fun potential there.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 06:07:04 pm »

Trader trash (finished goods) would finally have some internal consumption. What would be excellent is for supply and demand to work fully, so mass production of *platinum statues* will decrease their price both inside and outside the fort.
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Delioth

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 04:23:47 pm »

Trader trash (finished goods) would finally have some internal consumption. What would be excellent is for supply and demand to work fully, so mass production of *platinum statues* will decrease their price both inside and outside the fort.

That would make me want to mass-produce gold barrels so hard so that they were more common than wooden barrels, and then only make 5 barrels from wood so those are super-valuable(for a barrel)
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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 04:32:44 pm »

Trader trash (finished goods) would finally have some internal consumption. What would be excellent is for supply and demand to work fully, so mass production of *platinum statues* will decrease their price both inside and outside the fort.

That would make me want to mass-produce gold barrels so hard so that they were more common than wooden barrels, and then only make 5 barrels from wood so those are super-valuable(for a barrel)
That only works if there are no caravans.  With caravans, the prices might swing wildly depending on how much influence the world market has on expectations of local prices.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 04:16:34 am »

Caravans should also be subject to the economy. Price haggling would also be a good addition (we already have wood here, we still need a little more, but our maximum price is 10 dwarfbucks per log).
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Wooster

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 05:21:28 am »

Price haggling would also be a good addition (we already have wood here, we still need a little more, but our maximum price is 10 dwarfbucks per log).
Would it? I kind of assume that the broker's Negotiation skill and the lead merchant's Negotiation skill (plus maybe others) are, or at least ought to be, combined in some way so that a Governor is already being shown the best prices the merchants will take and offer. I think an economic model can be added into that as the baseline, but yeah, I don't want to be negotiating: I want my dwarves to have done that already!
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 10:54:59 am »

That you would trust negotiation to dwarves shows either a strong trust in dwarves or a lack of care about prices.

Actually having physical dwarfbucks in coins would help as well, giving the chance for inflation and even forgery, another punishable offence.
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WordsandChaos

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2015, 06:18:43 pm »

I think what is going to need to be implemented, to make an economy work, would have to be item degradation - across all things. Furniture, weapons and armour, jewellery, crafts. Not just clothing. Supply and demand drives an economy and when nothing can break nothing needs to be replaced.

This is why 99% of game economies fail: because items can't decay. They can be repaired to full repeatedly and suffer no setbacks for it. So the whole demand structure stagnates. I think a lot of gamers fear a system like that - because all of a sudden their legendary eternal bludgeon of claustrophobia suddenly has a life span. And they go ape. I think the DF community has the balls to take that in their stride, however. Personally I think item decay/damage is a good thing, and if you want to make an open world economy work reasonably well, you need to have things that need replacing to give currency a reason to circulate. 

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 06:46:46 pm »

DF already has that system in XXllama wool socksXX and other clothing items, so it would not take much to spread it around to make the economy work.
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puke

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2015, 03:04:55 am »

Furniture and jewelry lasts for generations.  Some for hundreds of years, some for thousands.

Maybe furniture could get broken during a tantrum (and I think it does burn in fire?), but it should not otherwise.

I liked that the previous economy was at partially incorporating demand for jobs and guild representation.
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Nicolo

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2015, 03:09:42 am »

What I think we're saying is we need dwarves to riot and break things more often.
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WordsandChaos

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 10:51:03 am »

Furniture and jewelry lasts for generations.  Some for hundreds of years, some for thousands.

Maybe furniture could get broken during a tantrum (and I think it does burn in fire?), but it should not otherwise.

I liked that the previous economy was at partially incorporating demand for jobs and guild representation.

Absolutely - I worked in an antiques furniture shop for a while. That stuff can be well made. That said, it still deteriorates. So at that point it's just a case of tweaking the numbers. It depends on the system used, but essentially you'd just give a well made table the ability to last far longer than a shoddily made table.

puke

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Re: Dwarven Economy
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2015, 11:06:42 am »

sure, but even an ikea table should last longer than most forts.  Should crappy furniture wear out after 5 years?  Is there a point to that?

I'd rather the economy have a purpose - like some sort of actual economic driver - beyond just constantly replacing junk. 
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