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Author Topic: Economy badly needed  (Read 1083 times)

Georgy

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Economy badly needed
« on: August 21, 2019, 09:10:02 pm »

 I feel honored posting on these forums of this EPIC game.
 As i m waiting for the next release (when it's ready) i just wanted to ask the developers
and/or seasoned members about the economy in Adv.mode.

 I remember reading some years ago about some problems adding working economy
but i don't even remember if was about Adv. or fort mode.
 At least in Adv. mode it's silly to find tons of free stuff laying everywhere without trace of ownership.
 Are there any plans?
 Have i missed something along all these progress reports?
 
 Thank you in advance :)   DF4ever
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2019, 05:20:37 am »

Economy (proper world economy, not the weird fortress only thing they tried previously) is still planned.

But first there's Mythgen, which will procgen lore, creatures, magic and the world in general making an infinite variety of fantasy worlds possible.

Then there's procgen politics & society which will define exactly what these fortresses and adventurers are really doing (uniquely in each world) and make starting scenarios possible.

Then Economy.

But perhaps Boats before that, because boats are more fun.

These are the major development parts anyway. There's still Villains and UI/Graphics capability to finish yet before work on Mythgen even starts. And each major step will no doubt see multiple versions.

A world economy does kind of exist already but it goes on pause after initial worldgen. Recent updates have been tapping into it more than previously (like mercenary bands having resources to upgrade their weapons, etc).

And there is no "Adventure mode update" when it comes to the big development items. They are Worldwide updates which effect every part of the game. Adventure mode is part of the same world as Fortress mode and they'll will grow ever more closely as development continues.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 05:24:26 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2019, 04:04:12 pm »

Welcome to the community, Georgy! Hope you like it here. :)

Also in regards to your mention of "the developers", might be useful for you to know that DF has only one full-time developer: Toady One the Great (real name Tarn Adams), though his brother Zach/Threetoe helps out quite a bit. Just so you have some perspective on the nature of DF and how/why its development cycle is different compared to other games out there.
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mikekchar

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2019, 09:31:41 pm »

One of the things I find necessary in DF is to have "house rules".  When you first start, it's normal to use every thing you can get to your advantage.  So in adventure mode, you can just take anything you want.  But over time that becomes boring.  To make it more interesting, you can make rules for yourself.  For economy, I tend to make the rule that I'm not allowed to take anything that isn't specifically meant for me (Ha! Ha! Buddhist rules!).  If I see something laying on the ground, it isn't mine.  Spoils of war?  It depends on the personality of my character.  Otherwise, everything has to come from bartering (note that currency is broken -- don't try to pay in coins for most things).  This means that I need to have something to barter with.  The easiest thing is hunting, carving the bones and trading them with people.  If I want steel armour, I need to go to a dwarf fortress, find a person wearing steel armour and haggle with them to get it.  Again, depending on the ethics of my character, I can attack people, kill them and steal the stuff.  Or I can attack them and demand an item (if that works -- I've never been successful, but I haven't tried that many times).  Usually, I try to consolidate my wealth into something small I can carry easily -- like gems.  Once I became a silk merchant and travelled around the world, trading silk for other items.  Then trading the other items for silk again.  The only downside is -- there is no economy so there is no arbitrage: the price is essentially the same everywhere :-)  You trade 3 things of silk for a silver dagger, then trade the silver dagger for 3 things of silk....  But, whatever ;-)

Another thing I do is if I see something on the ground that I want, I'll pick it up and give it to the nearest person.  Then I'll barter it back from them.  This is especially useful in a hamlet where you want to buy food from a farmer. Pick up the food.  Give it to the farmer.  Then try to get it back.  I'll do the same thing for the stock rooms in a fortress.  Pick up the item, find the broker, give them the item and then try to get it back.
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Georgy

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 05:16:15 pm »

One of the things I find necessary in DF is to have "house rules".  When you first start, it's normal to use every thing you can get to your advantage.  So in adventure mode, you can just take anything you want.  But over time that becomes boring.  To make it more interesting, you can make rules for yourself.

 I know what you are saying.
 I m sure i already got some thousands of hours both in Fort and Adv mode playing vanilla,tweaked and modded DF.
 Playing games like an addict last 20+ years ..what i ve found thats "spins my wheel" is the EFFORT you make
to gain/achieve...whatever you gain/achieve ..and when the times comes for a real economy-and hard-to-gain gold
 (and crime related to it) fitting the harsh world the player enters..it will be a whole different NEW game inside the game.
 
 Of course..
 as the other guys mentioned ..yes..every planned update  (and their features) will open unseeing horizons
and possibilities to every game fort,adv or whatever Tarn is planning for us.

 Without the intention of raising concerns* ..i just live for the day i can lock myself in the room..load DF
and just throw the key :)
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Rumrusher

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 09:08:23 pm »

So the subject of taking what you want is mostly in the 'homes' of those townfolks but there are stores where you can trade items to buy something of worth. so far the game currently does have some means of 'currency' in a form of reputations and relationships how good you are to others and how they see you affects what you can get or do with them. There is a relationship flag of Good for business if you trade with someone alot, also good rep will allow one to get free stuff from inns.
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Georgy

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 09:06:34 am »

 The homes are a rock steady supply of free food..but until a related update comes to fix that
we can just pretend "they are hospitable" or "afraid of you" and share their food but..

 ..places without excuses for free stuff are the regional lord's manors/hearths(?)
where you can selectivelly build top loadout without none trying to stop you
 or..
 bandit camps where notorious criminals just let you into their crates FULL of gold and gear
without pulling your nails before they kill you.
(and i m not even going to the point they JUST let a stranger strolling around their camp suspiciously)

 Of course last but not least are town's storages with tons of free stuff (2nd grade mostly..but still none's property)

« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:11:48 am by Georgy »
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Rumrusher

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2019, 01:05:05 am »

the stuff folks really care about their stuff is pretty much the merchants with will have their stuff marked with $ signs near them and Books and artifacts which is an pricey artifact that worth alot for a town otherwise the crafted stuff is just Junk anyone who needs it can have it life is too short and most of the townfolks don't know any animals or people or probably civs or anything is to care about a material wealth unless you happen to try to steal merchant goods or pick up an artifact.
like economy being turn off and random bags of food there so that npcs don't starve during world gen aren't really tied together economy being on before would more

like DF worlds are more currently giant living Sites that spawn inhabitants who then get bags of food place in their rooms to simulate being a functioning society to the adventurer. they would likely claim ownership of items and give a stink eye on one picking it up but uhh they don't have historical figures to tie themselves to those items to do so.
also if economy. though having played with it on it was a hassle and more likely just ignore it by picking up junk off the corpses of foes or people... which... hmm know I think about it economy was turn off long ago. like super long ago like around 40d era was the time it was probably on and even then it SUCK SO MUCH in fort mode that I usually don't reach that point in forts or it's turn off, and back then I think economy was mostly a fort mode toggle and doesn't really affect the rest of the world?

which inspired me to boot up 0.28.181.40d oh yeah no it seems like it was solved via having everything in the houses and homes mark with $ signs but back then everyone was a historical figure and have a family tree and the game had less to worry about to keep track on items and who own what or had to produce padding dummy npcs that wouldn't really strain on the legends mode until the adventurer talk to them or they did something as towns now have populations in 10,000s and chances are that will Bloat and Kill people pcs... which I think has happen which lead to the current set up.
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I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes

Georgy

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2019, 06:02:08 am »

 To be honest to don't want to go back to to other versions (i didn't do it even when people
stopped attacking or defending themselves-discipline tweaks didn't fixed that) :/

 I hope Tarn finds a way to circumvent the "clogging" problem and the others..


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Rumrusher

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Re: Economy badly needed
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 07:43:13 am »

To be honest to don't want to go back to to other versions (i didn't do it even when people
stopped attacking or defending themselves-discipline tweaks didn't fixed that) :/

 I hope Tarn finds a way to circumvent the "clogging" problem and the others..
the clogging problem was solved with the whole 'well the folks living in towns outside of set few don't get added to history automatically unless they are apart of an event that happen recently or adventurer talk to them, which has the side effect of them not really knowing anyone until properly explained to them on who and what that person is until they put 2 to 2 together and realize oh yeah that person.
 I mostly wanted to boot up 40d to jog my memory on when it like to have economy back on, and notice that no wait economy toggle was just for fort mode and it being off for so long means it didn't really affected adventure mode. Thinking about it adv economy isn't even turn off just currency is broken or if I remember there no exchange rate for different currency so the value is only located at the site they are used for. also yeah toadyone is slowly adding back in the stuff that got sideline from 40d with newer content for adventure mode.

the people not attacking thing is probably also tied to how each npc sees other npcs and if they are a threat or not kinda depends on historical figures on top of the town's ethics and remembering which event the historical figure did that breaks one of the ethics the town has one of them for goblin civ it's being a neutral to their civ which causes them to kill any neutral person on sight.
also insurrections are being a thing and the guards are plotting to overthrow their lords constantly like it's complex and you kinda need to poke into their brain to see why would they want to punch someone... which probably either requires dfhack to do so or a whole lot of Talking and asking their feelings, and who they are assaulting, and if they know who they are assaulting.
doesn't help that the way the dialog system is set up greeting is what adds someone's name to the historical figure's pool of known names so they might just don't know.
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I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes