Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 [28] 29 30 ... 37

Author Topic: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art  (Read 220337 times)

mikekchar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #405 on: August 27, 2016, 10:04:26 pm »

Just found this thread.  It is awesome and I really want to try it :-)

Someone asked about the practicality of these moves in real life.  I studied a form of karate for 10 years where we did full contact sparring while wearing armour.  The helmet has a plexiglass face mask, while the body armour is fibre glass covered in leather.  Originally the style used lacquered kendo armour.  We don't use pads for feet and hands.  The idea is to protect the targets, not the weapons because that way the attacker has to measure their power in order to avoid getting injuries.  However...

It turns out that if you get really skilled, it's not that hard to break armour.  We moved away from kendo armour because it was easy to break and costly to repair.  I still remember training against someone wearing kendo armour that had been repaired with automobile body fill -- which is essentially concrete -- that hurts!  But fibre glass has some give to it, which means it doesn't break as readily.  Believe it or not, though, a good kick will break it in half (and break a couple of ribs in the process...).  I've never seen anyone break one with a punch, though.

When we introduced the plexiglass helmets (which are bullet proof!).  The idea was that we could then hit as hard as we wanted because it would be too painful to hit dangerously hard.  This proved to be incorrect.  When originally introduced, we broke several.  Interestingly enough, giving someone a concussion is really easy as well because it's quite easy to accelerate the brain case to the point where the brain slams into the skull.  So the rules were set so that contact to the head was limited.

Trained hands and feet are incredibly strong.  You hit with the bones perpendicular to the striking surface.  It's a bit like jamming something with a straw.  As long as you hit straight, it won't ever break.  In our style, we usually hit with the ball and heel of the foot because hitting with the top of the foot leads you to striking with bones along their length -- which makes it easy to break them by accident.  When you train a lot, the ends of the bones calsify and you grow new bone over top of the blood vessels.  This reduces the amount of damage you take.  Even though I retired 10-15 years ago, I can still punch a metal filing cabinet full force without taking any damage to my hand.

So basically, the idea of fighting someone in full metal armour does not seem completely ridiculous to me although you would have to be careful about what you hit. I would hit a helmet any day, and would have no trouble kicking a metal breast plate.  I probably wouldn't punch a breastplate, though (as it would both hurt and be ineffective).  I'm pretty sure you could break ribs, etc kicking metal armour.

For those interested in historical martial arts on the battlefield, the Japanese have had a few schools of thought with respect to wrestling.  I ran into some people in Australia who I think were practicing Kyushin Ryu and trained with them for a while.  They had many interesting striking techniques to hit gaps in armour as well as mixing in pressure points and throwing techniques.  This they used in combination with sword techniques.  It was quite fascinating and when I was reading this thread it reminded me of that time in Australia (If I've mistaken the style name, forgive me, as it was a long time ago!)

I eventually gave up martial arts because I decided that I don't like violence ;-)  Now I just ride my bike and vent my violent feelings on hapless 1's and 0's.
Logged

TheFlame52

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master of the randomly generated
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #406 on: August 28, 2016, 08:45:56 am »

Well, that's a very interesting real life comparison.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #407 on: August 28, 2016, 11:31:00 am »

I just realized my old method of toughening my fists by punching trees was extremely dwarven in hindsight.
Logged

taro8

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #408 on: August 30, 2016, 03:23:59 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
The Elf falls over.
The Elf gives in to the pain.
The Elf vomits.

Urist McKenshiro: It was inevitable.

High Resolution version: http://i.imgur.com/nFqPKMY.jpg
Logged

Shook

  • Bay Watcher
  • ◦ ◡ ◦
    • View Profile
    • DeviantArt page
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #409 on: September 01, 2016, 05:22:46 am »

"You are already sick."

:P

So basically, the idea of fighting someone in full metal armour does not seem completely ridiculous to me although you would have to be careful about what you hit. I would hit a helmet any day, and would have no trouble kicking a metal breast plate.  I probably wouldn't punch a breastplate, though (as it would both hurt and be ineffective).  I'm pretty sure you could break ribs, etc kicking metal armour.
Ooo, awesome post! Gotta say though, i doubt that kicking a breastplate is going to do more than knock the person down, because hardened steel with a curvature like that is TOUGH (although it might be possible from the sides or back). Like, "not even guarateed to be pierced by a warhammer" tough, and that's a contact area of more hardened steel that's smaller than the tip of your pinky moving very quickly indeed, and people do wear pretty heavy padding underneath precisely because blunt impacts are cheeky as hell. That being said, i reserve the right to be completely wrong, and even if i'm not, i would NOT want to be the one getting kicked to the ground by a trained martial artist, plate armour or not. :v (though i can totally buy that punching or kicking a helmeted guy in the head could fuck him up)

I don't think it'd be super hard to kill the armoured guy if he let you, but the problem is that heavily armoured people usually also come at you with a weapon, typically a sharp one that can poke or cut holes in your body, and they're not super keen on letting you murderize them. Of course, this assumes that the martial artist is not clad in plate armour as well, which would be fucking awesome. I mean come on, karate knight? Yes please and thank you. :U
Logged
Twitter i guess
also deviantART page
Quote from: Girlinhat
It may be worthwhile to have the babies fall into ring of fortifications or windows, to prevent anyone from catching and saving them.
Quote
[01:27] <Octomobile> MMM THATS GOOD FIST BUTTER

taro8

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #410 on: September 01, 2016, 05:29:55 am »

Remember that you can always sneak and throw (spinning) sand at an armored enemy until you (somehow) manage to bruise his lungs.

Philosophical DF question: is lightning bolt spinning when it strikes someone?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 05:34:35 am by taro8 »
Logged

mikekchar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #411 on: September 01, 2016, 08:37:56 am »

Probably pretty OT, but striking is quite interesting.  If you strike slowly, you will move your opponent.  Imagine a glacier.  It has really incredible momentum because it is super massive.  However it is moving only a few centimeters a year.  If you stand next to it, it will eventually push you, but will do no damage at all.  You just slide.  Of course if you are rooted to the spot, it will grind you up.  Glaciers can dig lakes and destroy mountains.

Now imagine a car (I'm imagining a Herbie style VW Beetle) with the same momentum.  It will be going at almost the speed of light.  If it hits you, you will vaporise whether you are connected to the ground or not.

Generally speaking, if you hit slowly you will do less damage than if you hit quickly.  In many martial arts, you are taught not to use your strength because it is hard to recruit only non-opposing muscle fibres.  Instead you want to relax and strike very, very quickly (quick hint: each joint can multiply the speed -- strike like a whip, not a hammer).  There are many reasons involving physics why faster strikes do more damage, but I can't really explain in such a small space (and I'm not really qualified anyway).

When you get hit by a very fast strike when you are wearing rigid armour, the impact wave moves through you.  The faster the strike, the more it will affect you.  Even if it is damped by padding, it can easily knock the breath out of you.  A really good kick can break bones.  Slower kicks can be used to position the person, but they will do almost no damage.

Punches are less effective for a couple of reasons.  First, the levers are smaller, so the final speed is usually slower (there are some tricks you can use, though).  Next, the contact area is smaller.  This is fantastic against unarmoured opponents because you concentrate the impact.  For armoured opponents, it is already nullified.  The rebound will injure your hand instead.  Kicks with the heal and ball of the feet have enough protection to deal with it.  I'd personally never do it with the top of my foot or hand, but there are some people who train enough to protect those areas that you could do it.  Finally, people always assume that the initial hit does the damage, but remember the glacier.  If the person is rooted to the ground, then the strike will actually rebound.  You must align your bones so that rebound is directed into the earth.  This gives you a huge effective mass.  Imagine some one throwing a stick at you and hitting you end on.  Now imagine running (at the same speed) into a stick (end on) that is poking out of a wall.  The first one will hurt.  The second one will take your head off.

It's easier to do this with certain kicks than punches (because your torso is a big lever and you are punching from the top of it).  There are martial arts that train effective stances for punches, so it really depends on the style -- I am very opinionated about this subject, so will refrain from commenting more than saying that effective stances for punches are probably different than most people imagine.

Anyway, I apologise to the people not interested in RW martial arts and return you to your regularly scheduled fantasy martial arts :-)
Logged

NRDL

  • Bay Watcher
  • I Actually Like Elves
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #412 on: September 01, 2016, 04:36:37 pm »

As an aspiring amateur boxer, I am DEFINITELY interested.  And I so agree with your assessment of relaxed strikes, that's the only way to really generate efficient power without gassing yourself in a minute or so.

I've found when creating boxer characters in adv. mode, quick strikes are a really good way to simulate fast combinations and flurries, and the amount of damage they can do, especially in regards to stunning opponents with repeated fast blows to the head, I've found are even more effective than wild, strong, or precise haymakers.
Logged
GOD DAMN IT NRDL.
NRDL will roll a die and decide how sadistic and insane he's feeling well you do.

TheFlame52

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master of the randomly generated
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #413 on: September 01, 2016, 05:21:55 pm »

Quick strike master race. Make a quick jab with your sword, parry the opponent, repeat ad infinitum for easy wins.

NRDL

  • Bay Watcher
  • I Actually Like Elves
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #414 on: September 09, 2016, 08:51:46 pm »

Really loving using charge strikes in hand to hand combat, especially in conjunction with quick attacks.  It FEELS like it leads to less overcommitting, and less getting tangled over with your opponent.  Even if you don't knock something over, does the extra momentum still do damage?  I'm not sure how to check the game files for actual numbers related to that. 

Logged
GOD DAMN IT NRDL.
NRDL will roll a die and decide how sadistic and insane he's feeling well you do.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #415 on: September 10, 2016, 03:49:36 am »

Yeah, momentum matters a lot.
Logged

scrubs2009

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #416 on: November 04, 2016, 11:14:29 am »

Can anyone else not see any of the images on this thread?
Logged

Random_Dragon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Psycho Bored Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #417 on: January 07, 2017, 11:46:36 am »

Ah, I forgot just how amusing using the grabjump thing is. Not merely for bowling over foes, but also for disarming them.
Logged
On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

Enemy post

  • Bay Watcher
  • Modder/GM
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #418 on: January 07, 2017, 09:48:03 pm »

I don't know how useful this is, but I've noticed it's possible to momentarily stop an animal from biting by grabbing its teeth. You can even intercept an incoming bite this way. The animal is usually stronger though, so it will break away on its next move.

Here is an example of a human using the technique.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:57:11 pm by Enemy post »
Logged
My mods and forum games.
Enemy post has claimed the title of Dragonsong the Harmonic of Melodious Exaltion!

Random_Dragon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Psycho Bored Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #419 on: January 07, 2017, 10:01:51 pm »

That's related to other attacks, yeah. You can  of course grab a weapon in mid-swing and try to wrestle it away. Or grab at it, then hit jump before the grapplw check resolves to either jump away (disarming them) or INTO them (knocking them back). Or grab the hand holding it and follow-up with a jointlock.
Logged
On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 [28] 29 30 ... 37