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Author Topic: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art  (Read 155912 times)

Superdorf

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #510 on: February 19, 2020, 04:56:03 pm »

Specifically, that passage means open the advanced attack menu and look at what limbs are easier to hit. The idea being, the limb that's easiest to hit is the one the other guy's attacking you with. (I have no idea if that actually works or not, by the way.)

But yeah, I'm considering throwing together a "companion guide" for the other. We'll see.
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Broseph Stalin

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Kisat Dur Light: the easily understood Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #511 on: February 19, 2020, 08:34:13 pm »

Kisat Dur Light

Kisat Dur means empty fist. Kisat Dur is the art of killing your enemies without using a weapon. This can be somewhat misleading. Even though Kisat Dur is all about unarmed combat you can very easily use it to supplement weapon fighting and adopt the techniques to using a weapon.

It goes like this: If you want to be an unstoppable killer in adventure mode then you want to learn Kisat Dur.

Fight like a killer.
The first thing to understand is that Kisat Dur operates on a single guiding principle: Do unto others before they can do unto you. Combat tends to cascade. A successful strike causes injury which makes future strikes more likely and retaliation less likely. Simply put: all things being equal the first guy to land a blow will probably be the last guy to land a blow.

Kisat Dur is about maiming and killing in the most efficient way possible but it rests on a foundation of solid defense. Hitting often means first not getting hit. Remember, you have to live with your injuries, the enemy doesn’t. Avoid stand up fights like the plague. Stay mobile and try to hit the enemy as they're approaching but before they can do anything hostile.

Things you might not know

The path of least resistance: When you’re perusing your attack options occasionally you’ll see a little blue exclamation point. That means somewhat randomly you have an opening for an unusually easy strike against the enemy. Seize these opportunities, even if it seems like an inconsequential hit it could set the stage for something bigger.

Charging: Even if you miss choosing to charge can knock an enemy on their ass and put you at a distinct advantage, if it doesn’t work the first time do not try it again because it might backfire.

Conditions: Winded, Nauseous, and prone reduce move speed. Inflicting these statuses is desirable because it makes the killing easier.

Psychic powers: You have em. If you suck at observing most of the time the only info you’ll have about an enemy attack is that someone is “attacking you.” Knowing how they’re doing it makes it easier to respond. If they have a weapon they’re probably using it. If not go into the attack menu, their arms, legs, and associated features should all be about the same difficulty to hit with the exception of one. That limb that’s easier to hit? That is the one they’re trying to hit you with.

Armor: You are an armor piercing weapon. Armor doesn’t do anything against wrestling and punches against small appendages remain an effective way to damage muscle even against heavily armored enemies. If you’re feeling hardcore you can also try punching armor until it gives out or punching them so hard that the armor fails to deflect your blows.

Kicks: They’re really not worth it most of the time. Kicks might be slightly more powerful than punches but it’s not really noticeable. They are however noticeably slower. You can punch a dragon unconscious, even if kicks do hit harder it's not as though a lack of raw power is a major issue.

Movement

Dodging: Do it constantly. You can use multiattack to attack while you dodge. This lets you pull the enemy in just long enough to tag them and back out of range before they can hit you. This strategy can be employed to devastating effect, if you’re good enough at dodging you can essentially kite the enemy for as long as you need to. 

Tactical movement: Controlling your speed is important. Try to adjust your speed so you’re moving slightly faster than the enemy. If that means sprinting then do it but if it doesn’t then use your speed to your advantage. Run circles around them, they’ll start slowing down as they tire out. Reduce your speed as this happens. The result is that they’re pushing themselves to the limit and you’re not exerting yourself anymore than absolutely necessary. When they’re exhausted and struggling to stay on their feet and conscious go ahead and bash their brains in.


Striking
Two basic styles of striking, Heavy and Fast.

Heavy: Heavy is about the life ending organ pulping haymaker. Crush a skull, drive a rib into a heart, hit someone so hard that that the coroner thinks people are being ambushed by freight trains. Big hits can end fights and lives, hit them in the head and knock them unconscious or sever their spinal cord, hit them in the upper body and batter them into pulp. Selecting heavy or wild punches is good for this approach.

Fast: Fast is about inflicting debilitating injury via targeting vulnerable areas. A quick punch to the stomach inflicts the nausea debuff halving the enemy’s speed and making them vulnerable. A quick punch to the finger might sound like a waste of an blow until it twists the wrist, tears the muscle, and sends that swordmaster’s blade clattering to the ground. Punch the foot, sprain the ankle and then walk away from an enemy who can no longer stand. Light punches are good here, hit quickly then get out of range and set up another blow. If you’re using multiattack to dodge away you can get away with using wild attacks since you won’t be in range to be vulnerable after it lands.

Scratching: Scratches can be debilitating because they can be very quick and can directly tear muscle. One good scratch can disarm someone or take away their ability to stand.

Biting: Biting and shaking with your teeth can be absolutely devastating. Bite off a finger, bite out a throat, bite whenever you can. 


Wrestling

Catching: Catching blows can save your life. If you have any skill with observing you’ll often notice someone targeting you with a specific body part or weapon. If you use wrestling to grab the offending appendage/item you will either catch or interrupt the blow. Either way robs them of momentum and gives you a follow up. You can use this in conjunction with dodging or movement to strip the enemy of their weapon evening up a difficult fight.

Takedowns: Knock someone down without doing damage or inflicting any negative effect. Situationally useful but usually not the best option. One exception is if you find yourself prone with an enemy standing over you. If you use a takedown you can stand up in the moment they’re prone totally reversing the situation.

Throws: Throw someone to the ground. Depending on how strong you are and how tiny they are they’ll be stunned and possibly thrown several urists. Can be very useful. If you do it to someone climbing you can throw them tot the ground.

Strangling: If you have an enemy who for whatever reason isn’t going to seriously injure you in the time it takes to make three moves it’s generally a good idea to grab the throat, slap a chokehold on them, and strangle. Strangling is a fast way to disable or kill an enemy.

Locks: If you’re bigger and tougher one way to prove it is to grab someone’s limb, bend it a direction it shouldn’t bend, and leave them crippled.

Pinches/Gouges:  Tear em up. Tear up that meat on their fingers, toes, face, etc. If you tear out someone’s eyes or destroy their fingers you have a distinct advantage over them.


Slams

Slams are a huge part of what makes Kisat Dur stand out. The key is to jump on people and thereby fuck them up. The better the running start the more fucked up they get. The key obstacle to jumping into people is that they hate it when you do this and will try to dodge. You could grab them to hold them still but then you can’t jump. All slams in Kisat Dur focus on ways to prevent the enemy from dodging and rely on a few principles.

Jump first: If you initiate a grab you have a chance to act before it lands, start jumping now. It will connect or fail while you’re in the jump prompt. If it succeeds jump through their body.

Don’t grab their bodies: You can jump while grappling a worn or held item. They will still be unable to dodge but you can jump unimpeded.


Special Techniques

There's a lot of them made by very creative people who figured out a cool way to do a new thing or a cool way to explain an old thing. Try them out, try inventing your own. If you have insights to share this is the place to do it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 08:53:18 pm by Broseph Stalin »
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Broseph Stalin

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #512 on: February 19, 2020, 08:39:24 pm »

To the recent questions Kisat Dur works better than ever. When the original write up was done hitting a limb had no effect on the rest of the body. Now that you can twist and pull muscles blunt damage is much more dangerous and Kisat Dur is all about turning yourself into a blunt weapon.

Superdorf

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #513 on: February 19, 2020, 08:43:53 pm »

...Thank you :))
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draeath

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #514 on: February 20, 2020, 11:31:19 pm »

Indeed, that is much more clear. Thank you!
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upsetpanini1337

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #515 on: May 15, 2020, 04:36:01 pm »

Bit of a necro, but I was messing around in adventure mode and found something very interesting. Since I interpret Kisat Dur as a bar-brawl type of fighting style, I figure miscellaneous objects could be pretty useful in a fight.

 Stone Intuition

 Though the unarmed fist can serve as a perfectly acceptable weapon in blunt form, its grasping abilities need to be considered in combat-and not solely wrestling.

 The trained Kisat Dur expert can use surrounding objects to their advantage, and while this may be seen by some Kisat Dur practitioners as impure and a betrayal of the style, its effectiveness cannot be denied.

 Usage of surrounding objects with an extremely high density (i.e statues) requires a large amount of warmup, but with practice, the user can effectively prune limbs and extremities, smash bone and crush bodies. Users are also advised to throw objects nearby them for extra effectiveness.

Demonstration:
http://prntscr.com/shm316
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #516 on: May 18, 2020, 09:57:11 am »

I actually use miscellaneous objects more than wrestling
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Eschar

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #517 on: May 18, 2020, 10:11:14 am »

I actually use miscellaneous objects more than wrestling

I use choking. So much.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #518 on: February 19, 2021, 11:00:15 am »

I had forgotten about some of these tactics after being away from the game for so long. They work so well even as a novice facing a much stronger opponent. Quick scratches are a good choice of attack when you don't have any decent opening, since even if they aren't effective you're still balanced and prepared to counter next attack. When bone-breaking isn't enough to slow down a creature, but they can bleed out, then persistently targeting a body part (The Eternal Wrath) with scratches can get the blood flowing. If your opponent has the superior mass, you can punish their attempts at grabbing with gashes on their offending appendages.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:02:27 am by Uzu Bash »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #519 on: February 19, 2021, 11:34:02 am »

If you want the velocity to get running jumps in fewer tiles, you should consider the implications of this study I did on Food, Energy and Fat: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:Uzu_Bash#Food.2C_energy.2C_fat

To summarize, and include additional information: Reducing Stored Fat also reduces the mass of your fat tissues, and your base velocity will increase, by more than enough to compensate for velocity lost due to muscle mass gains. You can burn off fat by by jogging and running wherever possible (2200 Endurance is enough to keep a Run pace perpetually, though Energy costs will compound during combat.) You can also prevent Stored Fat from accumulating by offloading the map immediately after eating food or drinking alcohol.

Reducing fat will also lower your current size, but this will have negligible effect on wrestling/charging effectiveness, which is so heavily influenced by your creature base size that a human could reduce mass to that of a kobold's and still throw dwarves and goblins around.

Gains in ground velocity are applied to combat momentum; not only will you attack faster, you'll attack harder. Jogging/Running in combat will generate more Exhaustion, but can also give you the power to settle the fight before you can tire.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:36:49 am by Uzu Bash »
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TheFlame52

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #520 on: February 19, 2021, 03:23:29 pm »

Gains in ground velocity are applied to combat momentum; not only will you attack faster, you'll attack harder. Jogging/Running in combat will generate more Exhaustion, but can also give you the power to settle the fight before you can tire.
That's incredibly interesting. So this means that you can basically Kaio Ken by switching to sprint mid-fight?

Uzu Bash

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #521 on: March 05, 2021, 03:21:27 pm »

Gains in ground velocity are applied to combat momentum; not only will you attack faster, you'll attack harder. Jogging/Running in combat will generate more Exhaustion, but can also give you the power to settle the fight before you can tire.
That's incredibly interesting. So this means that you can basically Kaio Ken by switching to sprint mid-fight?
Air velocity is not ground velocity, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Putting it to the test isn't easy since your only opportunity to input any change in your flight is when you come near enough to grab something that would halt it. As far as I can tell, you can't change your ground speed while in flight.
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TheFlame52

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #522 on: March 05, 2021, 04:03:47 pm »

I said fight, not flight. As far as I know, yeah, there's no way to change your speed if you're being launched.

Say you're standing still, at 1.0 speed. You then switch to sprint bringing you up to 1.7 speed, but you remain in one spot. Will your attacks deal more damage?

Uzu Bash

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #523 on: March 17, 2021, 02:59:02 pm »

I said fight, not flight. As far as I know, yeah, there's no way to change your speed if you're being launched.

Say you're standing still, at 1.0 speed. You then switch to sprint bringing you up to 1.7 speed, but you remain in one spot. Will your attacks deal more damage?
Sorry, yes. It will also increase the energy cost of all of your attacks and defenses, but the velocity increase can settle the fight quicker.

You really ought to bring your speed up before you attempt this, because you aren't going to benefit much from 0.7 gain, and if that's your max sprint you're likely to incur exhaustion penalties instead.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art
« Reply #524 on: March 17, 2021, 03:09:54 pm »

To clarify this mechanic: Increasing your speed multiplies the velocity of all your actions, and multiplies the Energy cost of same actions. That cost goes straight into your Exhaustion, and if you don't have the Endurance to recover that at an equal rate, then it builds up until you get Tired, then Exhausted.

If you have the Endurance to sustain your pace (Jog, Run, Spring) perpetually, then you can likely fight a good while before the added Energy costs of fighting wear  you down. If you're attempting to fight at a pace faster than you can sustain, you're likely to wear down quickly.

Before switching to bullet-time, make sure your velocity gain is actually worth it before you crash and burn.

And for anyone else who imagines this to be a magic bullet, back to my original point: Energy costs come out of Stored Fat, reducing tissue mass from fat, increasing total velocity. Don't expect this to happen instantly, it's as gradual as bringing up your physical stats. It takes time and training for it to pay off.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 03:12:54 pm by Uzu Bash »
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