Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6

Author Topic: Temple ideas!  (Read 10402 times)

Aquillion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Temple ideas!
« on: January 29, 2015, 03:10:29 pm »

Since temples are apparently being added to Dwarf Mode, it seems like a good idea to post ideas for them.  Some of these might seem obvious, but it's still fun to write them down.

Dwarves will apparently visit temples or taverns based on their personality.  Temples, I assume, should require a priest or priests; the higher the priest's social skills, the more they can improve the mood of the dwarves who visit.

Dwarves are probably generally more likely to go to taverns than temples, but one idea that I think would be cool and realistic would be if dwarves facing extreme pressures or tragedy are more likely to go to temples (assuming their personalities or beliefs aren't totally opposed to it, of course) -- there are people in the real world who consider themselves technically religious but only get involved on major holidays or major life-events, after all.  More importantly, though, this would make temples valuable for the same reason they often were in real life -- dwarves facing extreme grief from a recent loss could go there to receive comfort from the priest, reducing the chance that they'll tantrum.  Eventually, perhaps, there could even be more formal funerals than we have now, where all the dead dwarf's loved ones attend and the priest (and maybe other people who knew the dwarf) gives an eulogy which can help manage mood -- of course, if someone does terribly on the eulogy it could make things worse.

Possibly priests could also have a skill for religious or supernatural knowledge, which gives them a chance to spot or harm vampires and a chance to successfully exorcise ghosts; this skill would also improve the quality of the temple as a sanctuary -- a priest who is highly skilled at rituals could keep the undead from entering, and civilian dwarves could automatically flee to there if they see undead.  Of course, this depends on exactly what powers religions have in Dwarf Fortress, but exorcisms, spotting vampires, and providing sanctuary against undead seem logical.  An extremely skilled priest might even provide temporary sanctuary against the dreaded clowns, although I doubt it would hold up for long.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 03:12:27 pm by Aquillion »
Logged
We don't want another cheap fantasy universe, we want a cheap fantasy universe generator. --Toady One

Helari

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 03:58:45 pm »

The latter suggestions seem like more complex magic system features, kind of getting ahead of ourselves. The consolation and ritual stuff seems p. interesting though.
Logged

LuckyKobold

  • Bay Watcher
  • I don't kill people but when I do it's slow.
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 04:12:26 pm »

What about Clergy arranged Marriages? Could make for some interesting Legendary mode stories.

Lord_lemonpie

  • Bay Watcher
  • disco-froggin' since 2013
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 04:17:22 pm »

What about Clergy arranged Marriages? Could make for some interesting Legendary mode stories.
Oooh, I'd love arranged marriages. That would make breeding superdwarves very easy, and it'll also allow us to create specific family trees. +1 to this, though it doesn't necessarily have to happen in a temple
Logged

Batgirl1

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 04:55:14 pm »

So would clergy be a type of noble?  Appearing on the nobles screen, demanding fancy rooms, and all that?  Or would it just be a job, so that a dwarf could have Masonry, Diagnosing, and Service Leading enabled?  Or- Wait a minute!  Maybe it could vary from god to god: for example, a temple for the Dwarven got of wealth requires an elected/appointed head-priest dwarf who insists that his god will not be happy unless his VIP clergydwarf has an opulent throne room with 50 chests; while on the other hand, followers of the goddess of plump-helmets can just pick any adult Dwarf out of the congregation to lead that day's service.  That would give it some nice variety, doncha think?
Logged

Lord_lemonpie

  • Bay Watcher
  • disco-froggin' since 2013
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 05:12:00 pm »

So would clergy be a type of noble?  Appearing on the nobles screen, demanding fancy rooms, and all that?  Or would it just be a job, so that a dwarf could have Masonry, Diagnosing, and Service Leading enabled?  Or- Wait a minute!  Maybe it could vary from god to god: for example, a temple for the Dwarven got of wealth requires an elected/appointed head-priest dwarf who insists that his god will not be happy unless his VIP clergydwarf has an opulent throne room with 50 chests; while on the other hand, followers of the goddess of plump-helmets can just pick any adult Dwarf out of the congregation to lead that day's service.  That would give it some nice variety, doncha think?
That sounds pretty cool too. Demanding statues/other stuff related to the spheres would be cool too. Followers of the god of wealth might demand golden statues, while followers of the god of war might demand weapon racks or armor stands
Logged

Dirst

  • Bay Watcher
  • [EASILY_DISTRA
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 05:13:23 pm »

So would clergy be a type of noble?  Appearing on the nobles screen, demanding fancy rooms, and all that?  Or would it just be a job, so that a dwarf could have Masonry, Diagnosing, and Service Leading enabled?  Or- Wait a minute!  Maybe it could vary from god to god: for example, a temple for the Dwarven got of wealth requires an elected/appointed head-priest dwarf who insists that his god will not be happy unless his VIP clergydwarf has an opulent throne room with 50 chests; while on the other hand, followers of the goddess of plump-helmets can just pick any adult Dwarf out of the congregation to lead that day's service.  That would give it some nice variety, doncha think?
This means putting the clergy on the nobles screen, but having their requirements vary by religion and probably scale with progress triggers and the number of worshipers.

It should be possible to build a shrine with no clergy, though one of the serious worshipers might appoint herself the role of "clergy" there.  Such a self-appointed cleric would not have any residence requirements, but the "office" requirement (the mini-temple) would have minimum requirements before it functions properly.

As the god system matures, they might start to have personality quirks that could be reflected in their demands for temples and/or clergy lodgings.  Ideally, demands will be more flexible... such as "rose gold figurine" could be partially satisfied with any figurine.  Some things might be explicitly banished from a temple zone... The Temple of Zog requires 6 tables and six chairs, but they cannot be featherwood.

It could get unworkable if gods are jealous of each others' temples... Zog wants the most opulent temple in the fort.  And so does Thrin.
Logged
Just got back, updating:
(0.42 & 0.43) The Earth Strikes Back! v2.15 - Pay attention...  It's a mine!  It's-a not yours!
(0.42 & 0.43) Appearance Tweaks v1.03 - Tease those hippies about their pointy ears.
(0.42 & 0.43) Accessibility Utility v1.04 - Console tools to navigate the map

LuckyKobold

  • Bay Watcher
  • I don't kill people but when I do it's slow.
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 05:30:20 pm »

So would clergy be a type of noble?  Appearing on the nobles screen, demanding fancy rooms, and all that?  Or would it just be a job, so that a dwarf could have Masonry, Diagnosing, and Service Leading enabled?  Or- Wait a minute!  Maybe it could vary from god to god: for example, a temple for the Dwarven got of wealth requires an elected/appointed head-priest dwarf who insists that his god will not be happy unless his VIP clergydwarf has an opulent throne room with 50 chests; while on the other hand, followers of the goddess of plump-helmets can just pick any adult Dwarf out of the congregation to lead that day's service.  That would give it some nice variety, doncha think?
This means putting the clergy on the nobles screen, but having their requirements vary by religion and probably scale with progress triggers and the number of worshipers.

It should be possible to build a shrine with no clergy, though one of the serious worshipers might appoint herself the role of "clergy" there.  Such a self-appointed cleric would not have any residence requirements, but the "office" requirement (the mini-temple) would have minimum requirements before it functions properly.

As the god system matures, they might start to have personality quirks that could be reflected in their demands for temples and/or clergy lodgings.  Ideally, demands will be more flexible... such as "rose gold figurine" could be partially satisfied with any figurine.  Some things might be explicitly banished from a temple zone... The Temple of Zog requires 6 tables and six chairs, but they cannot be featherwood.

It could get unworkable if gods are jealous of each others' temples... Zog wants the most opulent temple in the fort.  And so does Thrin.

Well pick a side or just don't build a Temple to start with, +1.

Deboche

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 06:06:07 pm »

There's one thing in the first post I don't agree with. A small and drecreasing number of people "pratise" their religion nowadays but it wasn't always so. I think it's because of a generalized lack of faith.

Dwarves should be about as likely to go to the tavern as to the temple, if not more, because they live in a deeply magical world where their gods are pretty real, active and powerful. Religious duties would be taken very seriously in any civilization where the gods are such a big part of daily life.
Logged

vjmdhzgr

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hehehe
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 07:11:20 pm »

There's one thing in the first post I don't agree with. A small and drecreasing number of people "pratise" their religion nowadays but it wasn't always so. I think it's because of a generalized lack of faith.

Dwarves should be about as likely to go to the tavern as to the temple, if not more, because they live in a deeply magical world where their gods are pretty real, active and powerful. Religious duties would be taken very seriously in any civilization where the gods are such a big part of daily life.
While the gods in dwarf fortress are real, they're nowehre near as active as you're saying they are. A few gods release demons at the start of time, then maybe once every hundred years somebody profanes a temple and a god curses them, or even rarer somebody gets a god of death to give them necromantic powers. It's actually really common for at least half the gods in a pantheon to do absolutely nothing at any point in history. Anyway, based off of what Toady said it doesn't seemlike taverns and temples are competing for the same spot in dwarves' lives. Dwarves go to temples with a frequency probably depending on how religious they are (which is something already tracked by the game you have dubious worshippers, casual worshippers, faithful worshippers, and more). Then all dwarves go to taverns because all dwarves are severe alcoholics.
Logged
Its a feature. Impregnating booze is a planned tech tree for dwarves and this is a sneak peek at it.
Unless you're past reproductive age. Then you're pretty much an extension of your kids' genitalia

AceSV

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SUPER_VILLAIN]
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 09:11:49 pm »

Has anyone played Sierra's Pharaoh?  It's an old ancient egypt SimCity kind of game that is similar is premise to Dwarf Fortress but very different in execution.  One of the features of Pharaoh was its religion system.  Each city had a Patron deity, plus other local deities.  In the early levels, you might have only your patron god, then 1 or 2 local deities, then eventually you'd have to balance all 5.  You had Osiris, god of farming (specifically the inundation), Ra, god of trade and social standing, Ptah, god of industry and craftmandwarfship, Set, god of war, and Bast, god of the home and health.  You had the ability to appease gods by building small shrines, large temples or by building a festival square and holding a festival to honor a specific god by spending money and beer.  (Fun fact, ancient egypt also ran on booze)  An appeased god would give you some sort of blessing, for example, Osiris would increase the inundation and thus crop yields, Bast would fill your homes with pottery and beer that the bitches keep complaining about, Ptah would materialize raw materials in your workshops, Set would smite enemies the second they set foot on your soil and Ra would increase the kingdom rating, which was how you won the game.  A neglected or jealous god on the other hand would damage your city according to their theme. 

I enjoyed that aspect of Pharaoh and I think it would translate to the worlds of Dwarf Fortress easily enough.  Since money doesn't mean anything to a dwarf and the consumption of alcohol is a given, I would suggest sacrificing some kind of item that is meaningful to the deity's realm of influence.  Here are some Fun ideas:

God of Metal
Sacrifice: Metal bars, metal objects or metal ores
Boon: Randomly changes existing stone on the map to metal ores; Drops metal bars from the sky; Metal bars in stockpiles come to life and befriend dwarves; type of ore/metal based on what ores are sacrificed. 
Smite: Changes existing metal ores to stone; Drops metal bars from the sky; Metal bars in stockpile come to life and attack dwarves; Metal bars in stockpile turn into charcoal. 

God of Fire
Sacrifice: Charcoal, coke
Boon: Creates lava tubes; Delivers coke/charcoal; Rains magma from the sky; Protects dwarves & buildings from fire;
Smite: Starts fires; Turns magma under magma workshops into obsidian; Rains magma from the sky;

God of the Wild
Sacrifice: Meat, living animals,
Boon: Sends tame animals to join your fortress; Protects your animals from harm; Animals have more babies; Wild animals attack invaders; Dwarves can control themselves as werebeasts;  Change domesticated animals into wilder versions, i.e, dogs into wolves, cows into buffalo, cats into lions, etc. 
Smite: Sends unfriendly savage animals to attack your fortress; Protects unfriendly animals from harm; Untrains animals (even domesticated ones); Turns dwarves into werebeasts;  Wild animals besiege the fortress; Change domesticated animals into wilder versions and make them unfriendly

God of Farming
Sacrifice: Food, Booze,
Boon: Increase crop yield; Increase yield from milking/shearing/butchering;
Smite: Destroy crops; Kill livestock;  Destroy food in stockpiles; 

God of Battle
Sacrifice: Prisoners, weapons, armor, blood
Boon: Dwarves perform well in battle; Invaders drop dead, go blind, can't move, etc; Dwarves gain fighting skills more easily;
Smite: Dwarves fight poorly; Powerful enemies, ie ogres, dragons, attack the fortress;

God of Crafts
Sacrifice: Crafts, raw materials i.e. wood, stone, glass, clay, bones, cloth
Boon: Stockpiles fill with materials; craftdwarves' skills improved; Strange moods more common and more successful;
Smite: Raw materials vanish from stockpiles; craftdwarves lose skill levels; Strange moods less successful;

God of Health
Sacrifice: Splints, crutches, thread, traction benches
Boon: Dwarves heal faster; Dwarves resist illness, infection; Dwarves' physical attributes increase, ie, tougher, faster, stronger, etc;
Smite: Syndrome plagues; 

God of Undeath
Sacrifice: Dwarves, prisoners, coffins, slabs
Boon: Creates friendly undead; Turns dwarves into vampires; Ghosts less likely to damage dwarves;  Ghosts attack invaders/wild animals; 
Smite: Zombies; Destroys burial sites, resulting in Ghosts; Turns dwarves into vampires;

God of Destruction
Sacrifice: Dwarves, prisoners, animals
Boon: Turns dwarves into vampires; Turns dwarves into werebeasts; Dwarves gain mutations like claws, stingers, fangs, web spitters, fire breath, etc; Dwarves gain happiness and nourishment from destruction;  Dwarves resist destruction themselves; 
Smite:  Dwarves go berzerk; Syndromes;

God of Wealth
Sacrifice: Coins
Boon: Coins rain from the sky; Masterwork crafts more likely;  Materials in stockpiles become better versions, ie, clay becomes fireclay, glass becomes crystal glass, stone becomes obsidian, metals become gold or steel, etc;  God Merchants appear;  Brokers gain skills faster; 
Smite: Lead coins rain from the sky;  Brokers lose skills;  Merchants get zapped or don't show up;  Materials in stockpiles downgrade; 

God of Justice
Sacrifice: Chains, Cages,
Boon: Thieves become caged;  Invaders become caged;  Dwarves that go Berzerk or turn into werebeasts or whatever become caged; More happy thoughts from settling disputes, complaining to leaders, etc; 
Smite: Random Dwarves become caged; Creatures escape from cages and chains;  Thieves appear; 

God of Love
Sacrifice: Clothing, booze
Boon: Dwarves become "good looking"; Dwarves get happy thought from seeing "good looking" dwarves;  Dwarves more likely to get married or pursue relationships;  Less unhappiness in general;
Smite:  Dwarves become depressed or insane; Dwarves become "ugly", causing bad thoughts; 



I'm thinking that gods are actually generated with more than one of these fields of influence.  So if a given world has 3 gods, I reach for my d12 and generate:  Goddess of Destruction and Metal, Goddess of Health and Battle, and God of Undeath and Wealth.  That's going to be a Fun planet. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 09:16:11 pm by AceSV »
Logged
Quote
could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.

Batgirl1

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 10:07:50 pm »

I like Pharaoh.  The basic idea seems pretty good, although some of those boons might sometimes be unwanted: a Dwarf who likes cats and gets adopted by one would be likely be disappointed if his pet became a lion, etc.  Although, since losing is fun, having boons that trip you up might be more of a feature than a bug.  And of course, running a fort despite hostile gods would be a great  challenge for the hardcore set.

What if some of the gods imposed restrictions on their followers?  E.G., Urist McReligious is hungry, but he's not allowed to eat plump helmets and that's all the lazy player stocked up on.  Depending on his devotion, he might just get an unhappy thought or choose to starve to death instead.  Or on the other hand, what if it was only the clergy that imposed restrictions/commands, similar to mandates?  That way, your dwarves could do just about anything while you're just getting started, but once you get big enough to install temples, the difficulty ratchets up a bit.
Logged

AceSV

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SUPER_VILLAIN]
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 11:36:50 pm »

Yeah, a lot of the boons and smites were intended to be either good or bad.  I find it humorous to imagine a Fire God blessing his dwarven followers by flooding them with magma.  "You guys like magma, right?  Here you go." 

I think ideally you would want the option to stay neutral in the cosmic struggle.  If you never acknowledge the gods, they won't care about you and give no boons or smites either way.  Also, a god's ire may not be dependent on your entire population but on each individual dwarf.  So if Urist McFireHater blasphemes against Fire God by putting out fires, Fire God will smite McFireHater by setting his belongings on fire.  Meanwhile, McFireHater's neighbor Minkot McFireLover goes to Fire Church and sacrifices charcoal regularly, so Fire God spares her and her belongings from the touch of Fire.  Finally, their other neighbor, Tulon McDoesntCare has never blasphemed against nor exhaulted Fire God, so Fire God will never set McDoesntCare's belongings on fire, but also doesn't protect McDoesntcare from the fire that started in McFireHater's bedroom. 

Now, that would all be theoretically hilarious to watch, but, given the nature of Dwarf Fortress it would be hard to realize what was going on, and it would probably destroy your framerate to calculate so many little things. 
Logged
Quote
could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.

Deboche

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 12:59:25 am »

There's one thing in the first post I don't agree with. A small and drecreasing number of people "pratise" their religion nowadays but it wasn't always so. I think it's because of a generalized lack of faith.

Dwarves should be about as likely to go to the tavern as to the temple, if not more, because they live in a deeply magical world where their gods are pretty real, active and powerful. Religious duties would be taken very seriously in any civilization where the gods are such a big part of daily life.
While the gods in dwarf fortress are real, they're nowehre near as active as you're saying they are. A few gods release demons at the start of time, then maybe once every hundred years somebody profanes a temple and a god curses them, or even rarer somebody gets a god of death to give them necromantic powers. It's actually really common for at least half the gods in a pantheon to do absolutely nothing at any point in history. Anyway, based off of what Toady said it doesn't seemlike taverns and temples are competing for the same spot in dwarves' lives. Dwarves go to temples with a frequency probably depending on how religious they are (which is something already tracked by the game you have dubious worshippers, casual worshippers, faithful worshippers, and more). Then all dwarves go to taverns because all dwarves are severe alcoholics.
They're pretty active, relatively speaking. Look how much attention gods on Earth got for centuries while having done barely anything at all. Moods are also the work of gods. If you lived in a world where gods curse people, create things and are a pretty well established fact, wouldn't you go to the temple frequently to appease them, confess sins or ask for boons?
Logged

FortressBuilder

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 09:05:55 am »

I think you should be able to control the amount of influence gods have on the fortress/the world either through init.txt or in Advanced World Gen. Some players like to have most aspects of the fortress be controlled by gods, while others would rather play with gods that only really affect happiness of dwarves or conflicts but couldn't just release a fire storm on your fortress if you don't build them a temple.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6