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Author Topic: Temple ideas!  (Read 10404 times)

Ops Fox

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2015, 11:03:55 pm »

I like the idea of the player being able to designate a shrine zone where religious dwarfs of all flavors congregate during downtime. A specific temple where a noble priest leads what ever form of religious worship the pantheon demands. And an alter that the player can build in a dwarfs room to imporve the happiness of very religious dwarfs.

I dont see why there should be a priest for each god in the dwavern pantheon though. Were only dealing with between 100 and 200 dwarfs having to deal with around 6 congregations would be a headache for the player.

I think it would be good if each pantheon had its own particular method of worship choosen at world gen. You could have some pantheons demand sacrifices, quiet contemplation, parties, preaching etc.
For sacrifices I think the dwarfs should automatically grab a vermin or their Own pet and sacrifice that. Otherwise for any lifestock killing or charcoal burning they must rely on the player.

Honestly having fire deities rain fire or some other magic sounds like it would diminish the gods into a sort of cosmic slot machine. I think having major blessing if they happen at all, be a once in a fort event would be much better. The benefit of a well tuned worship industry should be happier and more productive dwarfs.

However small unseen 2% or 3% bonuses for a particular farm plot or dwarf doesn't sound to gamey.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2015, 03:28:11 am »

I feel like it should just be implemented like rooms & quality.

Sure, having adequate bedroom for your dorfs is important,  but it doesn't make them go mad because ththey're the starting seven and they haven't dug out their own bedrooms yet.

Also, GC, Dirst, calm thyselves. Textwalls help no-one, and serve only to make you sound angry and pedantic,  which I suspect is the opposite of your intent. A rational argument is all well and good, but that much rational argument is breaking my poor android. :p
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NJW2000

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2015, 04:02:54 am »

I kinda liked the sancturay idea in the starting post... but maybe on a social level?

As in, convicted dwarves can claim sanctuary in the temple, and people get angry if you/ you can't/ religious dwarves won't drag him away.

This would be useful for adventure mode, while still creating interesting and tense social situations in Dwarf Fortress, in a more mundane, less annoying or supernaturally cheesy way.
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Zarathustra30

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2015, 03:51:39 am »

So, what about procedural generation?

Rituals would be easy enough. Some combination of poetry, dance, self-reflection, and sacrifice. They could also require some furniture item to conduct rituals at. An altar could simply be a table adorned with an image of the god. For balance, rituals with fewer participants would have fewer requirements. I'll get to that later

A ritual of cleansing practiced by the Spawn of Mothra. The ritual is conducted at the first quarter moon. The ritual is lead by a pastor of the Spawn of Mothra and multiple acolytes of the Spawn of Mothra. The ritual takes place at statue of Dagahra. The ritual is accompanied by a [religious musical form]. The ritual begins with meditation. Then the worshipers are annoined by the acolytes with a mixture of gnomeblight and black sand. Finally, the pastor gelds a dog while the worshipers and the acolytes dance a [religious dance form].

Religions would be procedurally generated to worship a single god, multiple gods within a pantheon, or the entire pantheon. Each religion would generate priestly positions to conduct and teach rituals.  These positions are automatically created if the number of followers of a religion reach a certain threshold, defined by the position.  Priests would make demands for items required for the rituals they know. If the ritual takes place without the items, all participants get a bad thought.

Priests would also demand to know more of their religion's rituals. Eventually, this would lead to the priest knowing all of the rituals of his or her religion. This allows for the evolution of a frontier church into a grand center of worship.

Temples could be dedicated to a specific god, a specific religion, a the gods of a specific sphere, an entire pantheon, or general worship. If a religion gets big enough, the priest will demand a temple. If it gets even bigger, the priest will demand a temple for specific gods of the religion (doesn't apply if only one is worshiped).

If persons of other faiths witness a ritual, they would have thoughts about it according to their personality traits, and could be disgusted or converted by the display. Faith could also be spread by conversations among friends.

~~~~

In an early fortress, dwarves would have few bad thoughts about missed rituals, because they could conduct most of the smaller ones without materials. Once enough dwarves are around to conduct the larger rituals, the fortress will be developed enough to supply the necessary materials. It may get a bit wonky if your starting seven have the same religion, but you could just pretend they were pilgrims.

Edit:
All rituals should only use materials available to the parent civilization and in relatively small quantities, so it would be quite simple to get by trade.
Also, managing 10 temples for 6 religions would be quite simple. Chuck a statue or a slab in a 5x5 room and call it a day. Simply [q]uery them to find out whom they are dedicated to and whom they belong to. The priests will take care of the ritual demands.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:27:01 am by Zarathustra30 »
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LMeire

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:53 am »

I like the idea of procedurally generated rituals for everything. There should probably also be the potential for long-term practices too- not just short-ish things where they pray, and prostrate, and contemplate, and pray some more- but really long-term rituals/practices like the "ever burning flame" that had to be tended to in many fire/light god religions. (Most obviously, the pyre in the Olympic Games.) The kinds of things that would force special requirements on a sufficiently spiritual fort and cause mass panic and rage in the faithful should the practices be interrupted.

I'm thinking of several versions of long term rituals:

- The previously mentioned "ever burning flame", in which ever major temple must have a constantly burning fire resulting in a significant drain on wood, coal, and other flammables as priests snatch good to keep it lit. Further challenges would include making sure the temples were properly ventilated and fire-proof before the embers from an older "Eternal Flame" are introduced to the temple, and maintaining order if the fire is put out for whatever reason.

- A "Sacred Beast", in which one creature in particular is regarded to be either a messenger or the embodiment of a particular god, this could mesh fairly seamlessly with the preexisting circumstance of megabeasts posing as gods. Requirements would be keeping the selected creature alive and encouraging it to breed as much as possible. It could be pretty challenging if your fort's main religion is centered on a grazing animal and you don't have many pastures that could contain it.

- Enshrinement of "Relics", objects or remains that once belonged to important historical figures- which now and forever must be found and kept safe within special religious structures. Fairly easy to just seal them in a room and forget about it, as far as fort difficulty goes; but relics should be huge targets to bandits and sapient monsters, so transporting relics between shrines should be extremely dangerous if not kept quiet and successfully retrieving a lost relic should be about the same level as slaying a dragon in terms of glory for adventurers.

- Witch Doctors/Oracles/Shaman, a special type of priest, that must be constantly kept in a "trance". Trances might be induced through a number of ways, from hallucinogenic incense to meditation in extreme conditions. Shaman would be a form of noblilty, that other worshipers consulted with for spiritual guidance, they might also provide a source of holy quests for adventurers. Difficulty may vary, as a trance requiring extreme heat would be as easy to fulfill as finding magma, but a trance brought about with the fumes of burning glumprong shavings might mean braving a reanimating biome every year or two.

There's probably way more things that could work like this, but it's all I could think of.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 03:11:53 am by LMeire »
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Zarathustra30

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2015, 03:56:43 am »

I was thinking rituals should be short term events that would be easy to include within the (soon to be) existing framework, so I am hesitant at the notion of having these ideas under the "ritual" umbrella.

However, no religion would be complete without laws and directives. A new umbrella is in order.

~~~~

Practices would be a set of requirements and restrictions that a believer adheres to. They, like song, dance, and rituals, would be spread through the knowledge system and it is the priests responsibility to teach the faithful. Possibilities include sacred or unclean animals, vegetables, and minerals; specific garments or ornaments; and forbidden jobs, all with a possible temporal component.

For ease of programming and comprehension, practices should be all be negative ("don't do this"). Even requirements to wear specific clothes should be considered this way ("never stop wearing your socks"). This is in contrast to rituals, which are strictly positive ("do this").

For balance and realism, an individual's adherence to practices are dependent on the individual's personality traits and the adherence of other individuals to the practice (including those outside of the faith). This will lead to an all-or-nothing deal, with small or diverse forts rarely adhering to practices and large or homogeneous forts often adhering to them.

In order to generate self-consistent rituals and practices, religions should generate a set of sacred and unclean objects to use in rituals. These objects must be available to the entity that founds the religion.

In case more !!fun!! is required, religious individuals (mainly nobles) may wish to impose practices onto others.  Normally this would only cause a few problems (perhaps if a dwarf's favorite beer is banned), but if a ritual of a different religion requires the donning of a banned garment, there could be resentment towards those who mandated the practice. If this happens too much, there could be spirals in the future.

~~~~

Looking back, this practices framework only covers one of LMeire's ideas.

Possible solutions to the other 3:
1) Have an ever-burning flame be associated with a temple. Perhaps when the noble priest demands the temple, he or she could demand some specific furniture to be placed inside before satisfied.
3) According to the randomly generated values of the priest, he could mandate expeditions to retrieve the artifacts. This should be very simple with the World-Gen Artifact framework.
4) When a religious noble is randomly generated, one of the options may be a required ritual every so often.

To sum up ideas so far:
* Religions are dedicated to a random subset of gods within a pantheon
* Religions randomly choose objects available to the parent entity to be sacred or unclean
* Rituals (positive) and Practices (negative) are procedurally generated pieces of knowledge associated with a single religion
* Rituals are group actions that often require specific materials or locations
* Practices are sets of banned actions
* Religious nobles are associated with a single religion and exist to spread the knowledge of Rituals and Practices, conduct rituals, and make demands on the behalf of the religion
* Religious nobles may have procedural elements to differentiate religions
* Religious noble positions are automatically created and filled for a fortress with a high enough population of a single religion
* Temples can be dedicated to a single god, a single religion, the gods of a specific sphere, an entire pantheon, or general worship
* As a religion grows, religious nobles will demand a temple dedicated specifically to their religion, and later, to individual gods of that religion
* Temples must have specific furniture before the religious nobles are satisfied
* Religious nobles will demand materials associated with rituals
* Particularly faithful nobles may impose practices on others
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TheHossofMoss

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2015, 04:49:00 pm »

I was thinking rituals should be short term events that would be easy to include within the (soon to be) existing framework, so I am hesitant at the notion of having these ideas under the "ritual" umbrella.

However, no religion would be complete without laws and directives. A new umbrella is in order.

~~~~

Practices would be a set of requirements and restrictions that a believer adheres to. They, like song, dance, and rituals, would be spread through the knowledge system and it is the priests responsibility to teach the faithful. Possibilities include sacred or unclean animals, vegetables, and minerals; specific garments or ornaments; and forbidden jobs, all with a possible temporal component.

For ease of programming and comprehension, practices should be all be negative ("don't do this"). Even requirements to wear specific clothes should be considered this way ("never stop wearing your socks"). This is in contrast to rituals, which are strictly positive ("do this").

For balance and realism, an individual's adherence to practices are dependent on the individual's personality traits and the adherence of other individuals to the practice (including those outside of the faith). This will lead to an all-or-nothing deal, with small or diverse forts rarely adhering to practices and large or homogeneous forts often adhering to them.

In order to generate self-consistent rituals and practices, religions should generate a set of sacred and unclean objects to use in rituals. These objects must be available to the entity that founds the religion.

In case more !!fun!! is required, religious individuals (mainly nobles) may wish to impose practices onto others.  Normally this would only cause a few problems (perhaps if a dwarf's favorite beer is banned), but if a ritual of a different religion requires the donning of a banned garment, there could be resentment towards those who mandated the practice. If this happens too much, there could be spirals in the future.

~~~~

Looking back, this practices framework only covers one of LMeire's ideas.

Possible solutions to the other 3:
1) Have an ever-burning flame be associated with a temple. Perhaps when the noble priest demands the temple, he or she could demand some specific furniture to be placed inside before satisfied.
3) According to the randomly generated values of the priest, he could mandate expeditions to retrieve the artifacts. This should be very simple with the World-Gen Artifact framework.
4) When a religious noble is randomly generated, one of the options may be a required ritual every so often.

To sum up ideas so far:
* Religions are dedicated to a random subset of gods within a pantheon
* Religions randomly choose objects available to the parent entity to be sacred or unclean
* Rituals (positive) and Practices (negative) are procedurally generated pieces of knowledge associated with a single religion
* Rituals are group actions that often require specific materials or locations
* Practices are sets of banned actions
* Religious nobles are associated with a single religion and exist to spread the knowledge of Rituals and Practices, conduct rituals, and make demands on the behalf of the religion
* Religious nobles may have procedural elements to differentiate religions
* Religious noble positions are automatically created and filled for a fortress with a high enough population of a single religion
* Temples can be dedicated to a single god, a single religion, the gods of a specific sphere, an entire pantheon, or general worship
* As a religion grows, religious nobles will demand a temple dedicated specifically to their religion, and later, to individual gods of that religion
* Temples must have specific furniture before the religious nobles are satisfied
* Religious nobles will demand materials associated with rituals
* Particularly faithful nobles may impose practices on others

Then of course.... the *PURGE ALL NON-BELIEVERS* demand.
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Illogical_Blox

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2015, 02:28:10 pm »

Even better if, when a tantruming dwarf breaks the temple, the gods curse them and they turn into a vampire/werebeast.
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TheHossofMoss

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2015, 03:48:40 pm »

Even better if, when a tantruming dwarf breaks the temple, the gods curse them and they turn into a vampire/werebeast.

Do they transform immediately into beast form? :o
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Dirst

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2015, 04:17:42 pm »

Even better if, when a tantruming dwarf breaks the temple, the gods curse them and they turn into a vampire/werebeast.

Do they transform immediately into beast form? :o
Presumably one becomes cursed immediately.  For a vampire, this has an immediate effect.  The werebeast might think she got away without punishment.
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Bumber

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2015, 07:55:30 pm »

They could also get plagued with FB-like syndromes.
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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2015, 07:22:59 pm »

 Haven't read everything, so this might have already been suggested, but I think it would be pretty cool if when say a city following their religion had been captured elsewhere in the world, very devout members of that religion would gather, trade away stuff in their temple for equipment and go off on a crusade to take back the city, which would give extra reason for players to get involved in religious affairs, for better or for worse. 
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Dirst

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2015, 08:05:01 pm »

Haven't read everything, so this might have already been suggested, but I think it would be pretty cool if when say a city following their religion had been captured elsewhere in the world, very devout members of that religion would gather, trade away stuff in their temple for equipment and go off on a crusade to take back the city, which would give extra reason for players to get involved in religious affairs, for better or for worse.
I like the idea of religion and other kinds of faction-based "international affairs" but be aware that the word crusade itself is radioactive for any game that aspires to an international audience.  Going off to "rescue their brethren" and such should be fine.
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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2015, 10:24:32 pm »

 Yeah worldwide faction based conflict would be interesting, especially when, if I understood well, philosophy will soon be added, so we can have clashing political ideologies drawing in fighters from the whole world, Spanish civil war style.
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NEANDERTHAL

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Re: Temple ideas!
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2015, 11:55:48 pm »

It'd be interesting to see rituals and shrines/altars/temples affected by game events, at least cosmetically. Stuff like this:

Urist McUberReligious has given birth!
The flame in the temple of the god of birth grows hotter and almost consumes the temple!
...
Urist McHunter has been missing for a week.
The bones in the shrine of the goddess of death rattle.
...
And it could also affect rituals too, say, a priest is gutting the heart out of a goat in a ritual for the peace god, and instead of a heart, he pulls out a lump of coal. Not too long after, a seige arrives. The lump of coal was because there was an army marching towards your fort. Or, maybe, instead of this, you could Q certain shrines and it would say "The ___ appears to have ____" or "a ____ feeling can be felt here". Of course, the occurrences could be either (a) very rare or (b) usually nonsense, depending on the given god's activity level and clairvoyance. I think this would give the players a good reason to pay more attention to their fort.
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