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Author Topic: "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Moved from Roleplaying to here.  (Read 1703 times)

Zavvnao

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Biggest Update yet: Moved from the Roleplay forum, as this may be more fitting.All of this will be changed possibly to fit the circumstances, but may be fine for now. currently how it was in the last forum


bigger update:

The slavery and freedom angle is one I had thought of before, everyone suggesting it has reminded me that I had thought of it once, and makes sense. Thank you for reminding me about it all everyone.

I had just been trying to create a world where dragons get to be dragons without having to be stretched to fit an anthropic world. Not out of misanthropy, but for want of a world in which dragons get to evolve and grow in a world not influenced or even made for humanity, one where the human race and all the bias and gravity around them in fantasy is removed so others can take center stage for once.

Anthropomorphizing some non-human qualities, such as emotions, are fine literary tools, so I am willing to mix and match.
end of bigger update

I have been writing and planning out a world to get published in novels.  I just want to see how popular it would be by getting others involved in talking and making a game of a similar premise:

It is a world, and experiment, to re-imagine dragons in a less human-centric way, and how a world and civilization would evolve and grow with dragons based off of (but not quite are) the breeds and species of Earthen mythology.

I jsut want help creating a fun world others would want to take part in making for the bay12 version.
So please, do suggest what you think would be better cultural influences or ideas if you want or can in the following post, and also ideas for non-human societies, cultures, and buildings (if there are any).

Till suitable names for species are found, I will use the Terms from our culture and mythology till further notice.

I already have much background info:

Note: The following world info is not to be our Earth's old and new worlds, but in the sense of grouping continents and ideas.

Spoiler: The world (click to show/hide)


Updated post:

Spoiler: crafts and specialties (click to show/hide)


More edits:
1. I am not trying to re-create Skyrim or dnd and such. Each is their own work. I care about creating a work that is not a copy of either. I Mean this in that here, I am just trying to work with a premise and move with others here just to see if people would even read what I write after this experiment on this website, separate from my work. To create a rather fun world with characters people would like and enjoy on bay12.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 02:08:39 am by Zavvnao »
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Lord_lemonpie

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 06:51:31 am »

PTW

Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 06:52:54 am »

What does that mean?
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tryrar

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 06:53:56 am »

it means Posting to Watch
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 06:54:57 am »

Okay. I just am trying to come back to this site and am very self-conscious. I really hope to make something and stick to it.
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Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 1
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 07:12:43 am »

I posted an update, adding a tab above for crafts.
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Kassire

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 07:15:26 am »

Seems interesting, I wouldn't mind maybe writing and providing my unprofessional critique.
So lets start with some inquires to see what the hell your talking about. Are there religion/gods and how prevalent are they in each dragon (Culture/ Breed/Race?). It seems there is a form of "magic" in this world, mind a few thoughts on it? Is this a D&D type of magic, perhaps to how powerful and common? Or more of a Game of Thrones type of magic?
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Ghazkull

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 1
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 07:34:08 am »

THe settings idea is relatively cool but it has in my eyes one major flaw: Dragons are not sociable. In all the stories, fantasies etc. Dragons at worst live completely alone or at best in "Flights", im figuring the offspring of one particular ancient dragon living in his territory.

As such a Dragon Society would be very decentralized especially if we assume that each of them is too proud to submit to somebody else. In effect that makes any kind of Dragon Society very low-tech since they never get together in societies to even have need for more complex things. I mean what is the need to industrialize if you only need to provide for yourself and your closest family?

Now if you add a subservient species into this, one that is per nature more sociable than dragons things change radically - and propably also turn darker.
Lets say you add in humans or some dragonkin/serpentkin/lizardmen species to serve as the subservient species.

That would turn your Dragon Societies more believable, since the Dragons form a kind of upper caste with the subservients as slaves or lower castes. Industrialization would make more sense since the huge masses the dragons lord over need food, clothing etc.pp.

That is if you had such a setting in mind, it would immediately turn darker and issues like slavery and the right to rule would turn up.
However if you go with purebred dragon societies you would propably end up with a more naturalistic approach, one without cities, towns or even villages as dragons live at best in small family clans.

In any case thats my two cents.
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Salsacookies

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 1
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 08:53:38 am »

I like the idea, do you plan to delve Into some of the dragons like in How To Train Your Dragon, the Toothlesses and Mega Dragons? Seems like your planning to essentially make dragons just as humans are to this Earth, do you plan to use an evolutionistic past, or a Christian Creation past?
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Servant Corps

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 1
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 09:22:18 am »

Quote
I have been writing and planning out a world to get published in novels

Then you have to design your world with the expressed purpose of telling stories in it. This means structuring the world so you can have characters and plot. Setting details to immerse the reader can come later, when you are actually writing the novel in question.

And since we need plot, we need some sort of conflict. We can write stories with no conflict whatsoever, a "slice of life" tale, but I do not really think such a format would sustain novels. Maybe a single novel.

For that reason, I back Ghazkull's ideas about dragons being solitary and having a slave caste of sociable people. We have two potential sources of conflict: slave versus master, and dragon versus dragon (as dragons would distrust each other and try to fight for valuable resources, like sociable slaves).
---
On a tangent: can all these dragons fly long-distance? If so, then we have globalization taking place as these dragons do end up interacting on a regular basis. This can lead to cultures inter-mixing and blending together into one "hegemonic" culture, which at least a few "purist" dragons would oppose. They want to defend their "unique and proud" culture from "alien influences". There we go, conflict #3.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 09:27:25 am by Servant Corps »
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion.
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 06:03:58 pm »

Thank you so far everyone!

I am not putting anyone down, just talking as politly as I can with each of you and understanding more of what each of you mean. This is helping me see what others want, and I am going to listen, but also expressing my opinions as well while I listen to you. I have a lot of info in the spoiler post above in the first post.


Seems interesting, I wouldn't mind maybe writing and providing my unprofessional critique.
So lets start with some inquires to see what the hell your talking about. Are there religion/gods and how prevalent are they in each dragon (Culture/ Breed/Race?). It seems there is a form of "magic" in this world, mind a few thoughts on it? Is this a D&D type of magic, perhaps to how powerful and common? Or more of a Game of Thrones type of magic?


I had thought it would be based on each species, as I imagine the western types (whatever their name is in this world) would not be into that as much, being very independent, but more likely in the smaller species like wyverns and knuckers.

Magic, I had thought that beings like the Easterners and Westerners being the most magical compared to others, but expressed in different ways. Do not know how yet though. Magic could either be very similar among them all, or different based on biology and culture.

THe settings idea is relatively cool but it has in my eyes one major flaw: Dragons are not sociable. In all the stories, fantasies etc. Dragons at worst live completely alone or at best in "Flights", im figuring the offspring of one particular ancient dragon living in his territory.

As such a Dragon Society would be very decentralized especially if we assume that each of them is too proud to submit to somebody else. In effect that makes any kind of Dragon Society very low-tech since they never get together in societies to even have need for more complex things. I mean what is the need to industrialize if you only need to provide for yourself and your closest family?

Now if you add a subservient species into this, one that is per nature more sociable than dragons things change radically - and propably also turn darker.
Lets say you add in humans or some dragonkin/serpentkin/lizardmen species to serve as the subservient species.

That would turn your Dragon Societies more believable, since the Dragons form a kind of upper caste with the subservients as slaves or lower castes. Industrialization would make more sense since the huge masses the dragons lord over need food, clothing etc.pp.

That is if you had such a setting in mind, it would immediately turn darker and issues like slavery and the right to rule would turn up.
However if you go with purebred dragon societies you would propably end up with a more naturalistic approach, one without cities, towns or even villages as dragons live at best in small family clans.

In any case thats my two cents.

I am not trying to dismiss you, but saying what I also had seen for this world.

Before I say anything, I was trying to think outside of fully European or Tolkienesque fantasy, as I want the story to be the story that it is, not the next Lord of the Rings or Witcher, I mean that politely in the sense that each is their own work.

Not trying to paint one group as more "evil" than the rest, but that does not mean there would not be any killing or conflict, as you can have that without black/white morality.

Are you refering to all dragons or dragon-like things in general? or just the western ones? I had thought to take a species like wyverns, inverting them from being big to being much more smaller and bat-like or similar to pteranadons in the sense of community. And inverse from game of thrones and skyrim counterparts.

I see slaves as a possibility, but not wanting another world of "dragon-overlords." Such as more likely, the beings like wyverns ending up as slaves due to being able to work together and make smaller, more delicate things. Or ending up as food for the most unscrupulous.

Basically, the most "dragon-like" I see being the Western and Eastern ideas, with sort-of out-groups being Knuckers and Wyverns, as I rarely see anyone mention either by name, and could be both unique and be vehicles for readers to understand the world by sharing realistic human qualities and such, or at least that of familiar beings.

 I do not see any species as "that" advanced, you are right, but I was trying to think in a non-human view of how we see dragons.

I like the idea, do you plan to delve Into some of the dragons like in How To Train Your Dragon, the Toothlesses and Mega Dragons? Seems like your planning to essentially make dragons just as humans are to this Earth, do you plan to use an evolutionistic past, or a Christian Creation past?

That had got me thinking a little bit for this, not much, I think I want to make something with httyd on here that is separate from this actually.

Yes, I am trying to think about a world that can share things with Earth, but is not really "our" earth. i had thought of a mix, where there could be spirits or deities, but are more a product of evolution like the dragons themselves. I was trying to think of the environments that would produce the different types, how they would be different on this world from our idea while still similar, and how they would adapt to changes.

Quote
I have been writing and planning out a world to get published in novels

Then you have to design your world with the expressed purpose of telling stories in it. This means structuring the world so you can have characters and plot. Setting details to immerse the reader can come later, when you are actually writing the novel in question.

And since we need plot, we need some sort of conflict. We can write stories with no conflict whatsoever, a "slice of life" tale, but I do not really think such a format would sustain novels. Maybe a single novel.

For that reason, I back Ghazkull's ideas about dragons being solitary and having a slave caste of sociable people. We have two potential sources of conflict: slave versus master, and dragon versus dragon (as dragons would distrust each other and try to fight for valuable resources, like sociable slaves).
---
On a tangent: can all these dragons fly long-distance? If so, then we have globalization taking place as these dragons do end up interacting on a regular basis. This can lead to cultures inter-mixing and blending together into one "hegemonic" culture, which at least a few "purist" dragons would oppose. They want to defend their "unique and proud" culture from "alien influences". There we go, conflict #3.

I am trying not to be embarrassed sharing ideas with everyone, so this is just new for me to be opening up this much, but am glad for criticism and hearing how others see this.

Slavery is fine, but I was trying to re-imagine things in a way that is not human-biased. In the sense of a non-human world and not in an anti-human protest I actually am NOT a misanthropist, surprisingly, but want something other than typical dragon overlords. This is not Earth and these dragons would not of evolved or been created in the same manner, so there is a wiggle room.

Eastern dragons: Would be the best at "very, very" long distance flying, the Old World Mainland covered in mountains ranging from European to Tibetan, so it is a large land with lots of flying and isolation. But since each is a long-lived individual, there is a potential for shape-shifting beings to end up hybridizing, and being purposeful agents of change.
Knuckers: I sort of wonder if they'd be flightless, taking up the least land area of the others, but having a spread similar to how early humans would of moved about.
Western dragons: I see wanting to have enough space to themselves, but tolerating as close as they can bear to be near others for any vanities they feel they need. Cultural influence being a tool to manipulate, and depending on how new or old they are to being "civilized" in a draconic sense, could change how they will react to new ideas or hybridization.
Wyverns: Yes, there is flight among them, but for ones living in canyons, cliffs, or "cities" if there are any, dong much more walking and climbing as well. So a medium spread around the world, so there wold be many predominantly wyvern areas in the south and central parts of the New World, and a big enough push could send them out further, if it does not wipe them out.
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Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 1
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 12:21:26 am »

I was on early in the morning and late at night, needing sleep, so that is why It took me to reply at 6 pm.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 01:38:19 am by Zavvnao »
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Servant Corps

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 2
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 06:14:13 am »

Setting the Wyvrens as being slaves for all the other dragon species would probably be suited for your setting if you want to avoid having humans. It can also explain who built the massive cities that the Western Dragons love so much. One possible story plot can deal with Wyvrens self-determination, or maybe a plucky Wyvren escaping his master dragon and seeking freedom.

Your last post seems to indicate that the dragons are not advanced, and their social organization is really on the clan level. It is hard to think of what type of inter-species conflict would occur then, as the Dragons would be mostly self-absorbed into their own family dramas and keeping the Wyvrens down. However, as the Western Dragons seem most interested in "vanities" they can borrow from other species, I would suggest the following:

A squad of Western dragons from a "clan" (maybe the whole clan itself) travels across the world to expose themselves to Dragonic civilization and gather more vanities and high culture for themselves. Story is told through their semi-loyal Wyvren who serves the Western dragons reluctantly and probably have more in common with other Wyvren slaves they meet than with his dragonic masters. But the Western Dragons aren't really evil pre se, and they are not cruel or unjust with their Wyvren slave, which they do treat as "almost-but-not-quite Western", so our Wyvren buddy is torn between his masters and the siren sound of Wyvren self-determination.

Also, we can have dragons stealing stuff from other dragons for fun and profit. Likely fun, because Dragonic society is too primitive to have profit be a motive.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 06:17:11 am by Servant Corps »
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Zavvnao

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Re: Planning for "Dragonsong" Worldbuilding discussion. Update 2
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 03:30:01 pm »

Setting the Wyvrens as being slaves for all the other dragon species would probably be suited for your setting if you want to avoid having humans. It can also explain who built the massive cities that the Western Dragons love so much. One possible story plot can deal with Wyvrens self-determination, or maybe a plucky Wyvren escaping his master dragon and seeking freedom.

Your last post seems to indicate that the dragons are not advanced, and their social organization is really on the clan level. It is hard to think of what type of inter-species conflict would occur then, as the Dragons would be mostly self-absorbed into their own family dramas and keeping the Wyvrens down. However, as the Western Dragons seem most interested in "vanities" they can borrow from other species, I would suggest the following:

A squad of Western dragons from a "clan" (maybe the whole clan itself) travels across the world to expose themselves to Dragonic civilization and gather more vanities and high culture for themselves. Story is told through their semi-loyal Wyvren who serves the Western dragons reluctantly and probably have more in common with other Wyvren slaves they meet than with his dragonic masters. But the Western Dragons aren't really evil pre se, and they are not cruel or unjust with their Wyvren slave, which they do treat as "almost-but-not-quite Western", so our Wyvren buddy is torn between his masters and the siren sound of Wyvren self-determination.

Also, we can have dragons stealing stuff from other dragons for fun and profit. Likely fun, because Dragonic society is too primitive to have profit be a motive.

You all really want a master-slave conflict in a way it seems :o
There is a whole, non-anthropic world and this comes up the most so far. heheh.

This is much closer to what I thought about, actually. Thank you, That plot is a nice one I should write down. A social species in a very dangerous world could have extreme, and possibly crippling separation issues, which would cause a lot of conflict for the wyvern servant/or slave, growing attached to the western dragons commanding him whether he likes it or not, and extreme empathy to others of his kind.

I was inspired to have wyverns have a little in common with dragon-age elves in a way, both "wild" and "tame ones existing but a few bands that are too isolated to capture or have things to trade that keep them free, and possibly a primitive city-state here and there, overcrowded with a subdued and timid species. I could also see here and there craft or lucky wyverns escaping to the Old World and possibly finding a place among the Eastern and knuckers who would not see them as food. Knucker holes like  surrogate family when they are accepting, and Easterners who are curious or even caring enough directing these small, intelligent "things" to places of safety on their continent, and possibly convincing others of their kind that wyverns are not the best and newest food source, or that they are an interesting "pet".
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 03:58:44 pm by Zavvnao »
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Zavvnao

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And how would dragons keep slaves, human or wyvern or otherwise?

Also, am I doing this right?
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