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Author Topic: The Civilization Cookbook  (Read 23075 times)

IndigoFenix

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The Civilization Cookbook
« on: February 05, 2015, 07:01:47 am »

Making interesting creatures is fun and testing them in the arena is more fun, but when it comes to worldbuilding, it's the entities that count.  Unfortunately, there are surprisingly few comprehensive guides on the topic of civilizations science.

Have you ever made an entity that behaved in an unusual way?  Have you discovered any tricks for making an entity behave in the way you wanted to, during worldgen or afterwards? Post your finds here.


Spoiler: The Four Factions (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Pets and Livestock (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Nobles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Land Holder Positions (click to show/hide)

Site type specifics
Spoiler: Mountain Folk (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: City Slickers (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Tree Huggers (click to show/hide)

Entity Relationship Tweaker online utility (allows you to upload an entity file and tweak their ethics while viewing how much each civ likes/hates each other, then download the result)

Info about sapient pets
Stuff about mining underworld disasters

I will post more here later.

scamtank

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 08:47:48 am »

Yo these are super neat and interesting. Do keep posting.
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Knight Otu

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 12:23:35 pm »

Spoiler: Mountain Folk (click to show/hide)
Dwarves do not have [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS] and they build fortresses. Rather, fortresses are built at the edge of the mountain, while mountain halls are built on either any mountain tile or non-edge mountain tiles, not sure which one. The first site of a cav_detailed civ will be a fortress, as well, even if it can't be placed in the mountains.

Spoiler: City Slickers (click to show/hide)
Keeps and mead halls do not depend on BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS. I just tested that. Removed the tag from humans, genned a new world, and the structures are still there both in Legends and in adventure mode.

BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS is, most likely, without any function at the moment. It used to create the separate keeps that you could encounter, the ones without a city around them.

Also, no more than one civ-wide position with the LAW_MAKING responsibility.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 12:57:59 pm »

Hmm, good to know!  Fixed.
Do you know what causes the difference between hillocks and fortresses?  I have seen fortresses in non-mountainous areas, so it isn't that.  Maybe it's just the population?

Knight Otu

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 01:04:59 pm »

Hm. I don't think I've ever seen fortresses outside mountain edges apart from the one starting fortress that I've seen with non-mountain start civs. As far as I've seen it was a strict mountain - fortress/mountain home, non-mountain - hillock split. If it isn't, then it's possible that settling in a SETTLEMENT_BIOME rather than a START_BIOME causes hillocks, and the reverse causes fortresses. I've got a civ where that should be a one line change to test...

Edit - doesn't look like it from two quick tests. Two civs each time, pretty close, and only two fortresses and some hillocks.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:23:50 pm by Knight Otu »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 01:30:10 pm »

Hm. I don't think I've ever seen fortresses outside mountain edges apart from the one starting fortress that I've seen with non-mountain start civs. As far as I've seen it was a strict mountain - fortress/mountain home, non-mountain - hillock split. If it isn't, then it's possible that settling in a SETTLEMENT_BIOME rather than a START_BIOME causes hillocks, and the reverse causes fortresses. I've got a civ where that should be a one line change to test...

Edit - doesn't look like it from two quick tests. Two civs each time, pretty close, and only two fortresses and some hillocks.

Mountain halls are always on mountains, and hillocks are always off mountains.  Fortresses, however, can show up on either.  If you mod a race to build CAVE_DETAILED sites but not start on mountains, their first settlement will usually become a fortress, which suggests that it might be a population thing, or possibly noble-related.  It's probably the subterranean counterpart to human keeps, although I'm not 100% certain what triggers those either.

Meph

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 01:35:21 pm »

Four factions + fake factions.

LAYER_LINKED civs never trade with you and wont become allies.
Tribes ignore factions and live in the caverns in small groups, always hostile.
Civs that cant speak (utterances etc) are always hostile to everyone.
Civs with CRAZED or OPPOSED-TO-LIFE creatures are always hostile to everyone, even if they are officially your allies.

Civs with SKULKING can be your allies, but dont appear on the list of neighbours at embark, great way to hide them from the player in the beginning.

Civs with no active seasons you already no about from the Gnomes. Would make them script/reaction-activated-only, for example meddling with dark arts triggers a Paladin siege, or getting over 5mio wealth triggers a invasion of an army of robbers. IF force event would still work with 40.x, which it does not at the moment.
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Vattic

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 01:41:08 pm »

Posting to watch this interesting thread.
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Knight Otu

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 01:52:52 pm »

Mountain halls are always on mountains, and hillocks are always off mountains.  Fortresses, however, can show up on either.  If you mod a race to build CAVE_DETAILED sites but not start on mountains, their first settlement will usually become a fortress, which suggests that it might be a population thing, or possibly noble-related.  It's probably the subterranean counterpart to human keeps, although I'm not 100% certain what triggers those either.
Yeah, the first site is always a fortress. I just added some more tests with exactly six civs, the vanilla ones and the one cave_detailed non-mountain civ. Despite building tons of hillocks, the non-mountain civ never created another fortress, while the dwarves built more fortresses. I also added tunnels to the non-mountain civ, but that didn't change things.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 02:56:42 pm »

It is possible for a civ to build more than one fortress, though.

I've been doing some experiments, trying to create an insanely aggressive cave-dwelling race that would regularly take over sites belonging to another civ.  I attempted to do this by using a modified steel colossus race.  However, there were only a handful of times that I actually got to see a colossus-owned site.  But this was the case even if they weren't cave-dwellers, so I think I'm missing something.

At any rate, when they made hillocks, fortresses would pop up all over the map.

Meph

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 03:21:08 pm »

You could add the hint that NO_AGING creatures will be friendly to undeads, so civs that embark on evil regions would get free re-animating allies. ;)
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 03:47:47 pm »

I'm focusing mainly on things that affect worldgen, site creation, migration, conquests, that kind of thing.

Knight Otu

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 05:14:00 pm »

At any rate, when they made hillocks, fortresses would pop up all over the map.
It's odd. I can't get it to happen under any circumstances I've tried, now with slightly modifying dwarves. It's always one fortress and tons of hillocks, or as many as allowed.
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Boltgun

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 03:52:10 am »

Nice thread, let's talk about pets and livestock.

During world gen, each civ fills 5 lists of creatures:
  • Pets: Can be bought at embark, and are also brought by caravans and migration waves
  • Mounts: Used by invaders, a mounted invader is pretty much two enemies in one tile.
  • Pack: Used by caravans, they hold a limited amount of good on their back.
  • Pull: Used by caravan to pull wagons, two of them are also spawned on embark.
  • Minion: Creatures gathered into their own squads during invasions and are used in world gen battles.

In order to add creatures to this list, civs requires a white list made from preference tags. According to these tags, each civilization will spread over neighboring biomes, adding any non intelligent animal with a PET tag living in these places.

PULL, MOUNT, PACK creatures are explicitly added to their role as well as the pet list, TRAINABLE_WAR will also add trained versions in the minion list.

In example, camels are common pack animals living in desert biomes. An human civ spreading over a desert will consider camels as a pet and a pack animal.

To answer a frequently asked question: No, you cannot design a creature to be a pet for one specific civ. The best possible is to give it the same biome settings than the targeted civ to ensure its presence.

Adding creatures

COMMON_DOMESTIC_PACK, PULL, PET, etc. Allow creatures with the PET and COMMON_DOMESTIC tags to be added. Those creatures must not be intelligent.

USE_CAVE_ANIMALS enables any creature with a subterranean level of 1 or 2 to be added. Because all biomes tend to have an underground area and those ignore good and evil levels of the surface, this makes it very easy to add such creatures to the civ. This is why goblins always have access to trolls.

USE_GOOD_ANIMALS or USE_EVIL_ANIMALS allows creatures with GOOD or EVIL tags to be added. Otherwise those will be forbidden even if they satisfy other conditions. Such creatures only spawn on good or evil biomes and there is no way to force a civ to go there. The best bet to add such creatures is to make them cave animals as well.

One special case for EVIL creatures: INTELLIGENT races with SLOW_LEARNER or only CAN_SPEAK (aka dumb creatures) are also added to pets and minions as they are enslaved. This is why goblins bring trolls for sieges.

USE_ANY_PET_RACE causes the civ to treat PET_EXOTIC as simply PET. This is why elves can trade exotic creatures but since they only use PACK and not PULL animals, they do not have wagons.

Special cases

SCOUT adds adventurers during world gen who will go in the wilds or the caverns. If they are successful, they will tame a PET_EXOTIC creature of the mentioned biomes and add it to the lists. This is used to create more variations between worlds and explain with humans often send squads of tigers at you.

USE_ANIMAL_PRODUCTS will add leather, sheared fur, blood and venom from creatures, pet or not, to the available resources.

Players can add PET_EXOTIC creatures to the civ lists in fort mode by capturing and taming them.

Playing with dfhack

When I said that you cannot design a creature for one specific civ, this is not completely true. We could insert creatures manually upon loading the save in the 0.34 series. It is not know yet if it work properly now that df track sites populations but here's some info about that.
  • Adding pets worked as intended.
  • Adding pack and pull animals did, but if the civ had no such creature during worldgen, caravans were void of any good to trade.
  • Mounts and minions behavior is unconfirmed, we need an example of a siege with inserted creatures added.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:22:57 am by Boltgun »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 07:03:53 am »

Nice.  Added to the main post.
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