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Author Topic: The Civilization Cookbook  (Read 22946 times)

Deon

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2015, 04:49:49 pm »

Thanks a lot for this thread, IndigoFenix. I, for one, did not know that making a CAVE_DETAILED site in non-mountain site makes the settlements into hillocks. I for some reason thought it was "SETTLEMENT_BIOME" responsible for that.

Now I can have tribals living in mud huts. And a few other things were either refreshing or interesting as well, so thanks a lot again.
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Deon

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2015, 05:44:05 pm »

I've managed it.

Spoiler: The Megabeast (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: The Position (click to show/hide)

As long as there is a free Great Dragon to take over the Lawgiver position, it will always do so, as far as I can tell.
Destruction is not a valid sphere, otherwise amazing. I do the same to dragon in my old Genesis and in my new The Fall mod. Vanilla lacks any variety in that regard (I do not count cave dragons as real dragons).
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Rex Invictus

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 06:10:15 pm »

I've managed it.

Spoiler: The Megabeast (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: The Position (click to show/hide)

As long as there is a free Great Dragon to take over the Lawgiver position, it will always do so, as far as I can tell.
Destruction is not a valid sphere, otherwise amazing. I do the same to dragon in my old Genesis and in my new The Fall mod. Vanilla lacks any variety in that regard (I do not count cave dragons as real dragons).

I'm high on oxygen or something, because I could swear Destruction was a sphere when I wrote that. Hell, I copied it off the SPHERES page on the DFWiki.
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Deon

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2015, 06:12:56 pm »

Well I tried your creature to check how powerful it is and it was the first thing I got in my errorlog.txt :).

Also I like the abilities of your dragons. I've modded various dragons in The Fall already, but they are 3 different creature types rather than castes. It makes sense to make them as castes, and as I said I like their abilities. Would it be okay if I just copy-pasted your creature and reorganized the castes and added the required ones for my total conversion mod? I just need to start filling the Credits list sooner or later, and if you would not mind then you would be the first :). Also of course it would be helpful because I don't have as much time as in the past when I made Genesis Reborn/Old Genesis so any help would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 06:15:22 pm by Deon »
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Rex Invictus

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2015, 06:19:24 pm »

Well I tried your creature to check how powerful it is and it was the first thing I got in my errorlog.txt :).

Also I like the abilities of your dragons. I've modded various dragons in The Fall already, but they are 3 different creature types rather than castes. It makes sense to make them as castes, and as I said I like their abilities. Would it be okay if I just copy-pasted your creature and reorganized the castes and added the required ones for my total conversion mod? I just need to start filling the Credits list sooner or later, and if you would not mind then you would be the first :). Also of course it would be helpful because I don't have as much time as in the past when I made Genesis Reborn/Old Genesis so any help would be appreciated.

I didn't realise there was an errorlog until earlier today, in all honesty.

That'd be great. I'd recommend stripping them from my kobold camp mod, though, as they're more up to date and have separate castes for males and females.
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Deon

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2015, 06:25:34 pm »

I don't really need anything but global organization, poisons, gaits and stats. I have my own material system (which seems to work fine so far, let's hope it does not lead to a total disbalance later). Rotting from the dracolich just slowly killed all of my squad after they managed to take one down while wearing full steam-powered armor and shooting steel bullets.
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Tabithda

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2015, 08:09:52 pm »

Ah, an excellent thread, this one.  Contains a lot of information that is all too often ignored or otherwise overlooked.  I do have a couple of things to add to this though.

Some caveats: Creatures with UTTERANCES, or without the ability to speak, will always be hostile, even if they technically would be considered the same faction.  They will also wage endless wars, since they lack the ability to form treaties.
Regarding this, UTTERANCES on its own does not have this effect.  It is solely whether or not the creature can speak or not.  I have been playing with a custom species for over 3 years now that has both UTTERANCES and INTELLIGENT and the only effect it has is that said species use the kobold's gibberish for all their naming needs.  They otherwise act just like any other civ.


MAX_SITE_POP_NUMBER places an approximate limit on the number of individuals that can live in a site.  The closer a site is to reaching its limit, the more likely it is for a new site to be created.
It is my experience that this token no longer has any effect, or at least one that is difficult for me to notice.


Note that this doesn't fully apply for civs with DEFAULT_SITE_TYPE:CAVE, as these civs will never build new sites, only settle in existing caves.  If a civ has no nearby cave for migrants to move into, they will remain in place.
This is not entirely true.  While in world gen a civ with DEFAULT_SITE_TYPE:CAVE will not settle in any other caves than the one they are placed in at the start of world gen.  After world gen they will go and "reclaim" other caves, but if the cave is on a different landmass (or in some other way inaccessible?) the group will just sit in place and go nowhere.  This "reclaiming" of caves will often have the effect of emptying the original cave of most of its inhabitants.

Furthermore, in the event that there are no empty caves to "reclaim" the civ will instead send out one or more groups to "found" a new cave.  This will create a large site that contains nothing at all, which on the adventure map resemble what dwarf sites used to look like before that last major update made them visitable again.  And just like those unvisitable dwarf sites, there will be no way to find or in any way interact with those said to live there.

Do note though that I noticed said effects with my own custom species, I am not sure if creatures lacking INTELLIGENT (such as kobolds) will engage in such silly behavior, though I suspect they might.


Civs with [DEFAULT_SITE_TYPE:CAVE] will not create their own sites, and will not appear on the civ list in fortress mode.  They will, however, settle in other sites and may go to war with other civs, provided they have the required tags.  This allows you to create 'secret' civs that may show up as a surprise for a fort, or you may rarely find members of them hanging out on regular sites as an adventurer.  On rare occasions, a cave civ may take over a nearby settlement and claim it for themselves.

Adventurers can come from cave civs, but you will not be able to see where they start out on the map when choosing your adventurer.
Regarding not creating their own sites, see above.  Regarding not being able to see cave civ's adventurer's origins, I should add that that is entirely dependent on where you have "reveal caves" set on or off. (it is off by default)


Thanks a lot for this thread, IndigoFenix. I, for one, did not know that making a CAVE_DETAILED site in non-mountain site makes the settlements into hillocks. I for some reason thought it was "SETTLEMENT_BIOME" responsible for that.

Now I can have tribals living in mud huts. And a few other things were either refreshing or interesting as well, so thanks a lot again.
Lastly, I should add that while most of the settlements with this will be hillocks, a few of the civs settlements(and always the first one) will be a fortress, regardless of what biome it is in.  In this manner it mimics the way towns and hamlets work.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 08:22:38 pm by Tabithda »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2015, 11:42:15 am »

Thanks.  I added your info to the main post.

MAX_SITE_POP_NUMBER has some effect, although it is not a 'hard' value - site populations can go over the 'maximum', they will not necessarily reach the maximum before founding new sites, and I have no idea how immigrants from other civs are calculated.  However, increasing or decreasing the maximum has a noticeable effect on how quickly and how far a civ spreads out, especially when the max civ population is fairly low.  (My mod uses a large number of minor civs that are supposed to stay relatively close to their starting region, without spreading out too much.  Raising the MAX_SITE_POP_NUMBER to a high amount without changing the other values kept civs small that otherwise had a tendency to take over the world.)  I'm not entirely sure how the spread is determined, but the theory that they are more likely to found new communities or migrate as the population approaches the 'maximum' is consistent with my observations.

Propman

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2015, 11:08:17 pm »

Bumping this for interest in regards to how the subterranean animial civilizations work. What are the parameters to get a tribal civ to spawn (are they tied to the creature entity itself, or the civ, with the answer most likely lying in the former), and what invalidates their placement? Could one theoretically have a "subterranean" civilization that spawns on the surface world?
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Eric Blank

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 02:37:07 pm »

Since the subterranean entity is layer_linked, the civs will appear in the cavern layers the creature definition gives them access to.

That said, 0 is a valid value on the UNDERGROUND_DEPTH token, and represents above ground. So the logical thing to do is test it.

I am loving this thread, by the way.


update: the answer appears to be no, tribes won't spawn above ground even if you gave them access to above ground layer (o) and surface biomes. Damn.
Won't prevent them appearing underground, though.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 03:54:01 pm by Eric Blank »
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scamtank

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2015, 04:24:00 pm »

The underground tribe stuff is super specific, limited and restricted. Toady's griped about it in the past.
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Propman

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2015, 04:01:41 am »

I've come across a new piece of information in regards to the matter: Apparently, in order for subterranean races to actually spawn, it appears that you have to actually call the entity something with the line of "SUBTERRANEAN" inside of the entity name. In my test, "SUBTERRANEAN_ANIMAL_PEOPLES_1" seemed to work just as well as normal, as did "SUBTERRANEAN" and "SUBTERRANEAN_1", but anything not starting with the word would not be generated. A secondary requirement was that the creatures had to actually appear in a subterranean biome to generate as defined in their raws; simply listing them under the entity is insufficient.
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Knight Otu

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2015, 05:04:41 am »

The requirements for layer_linked civs are - the creature needs a subterranean biome, and an underground depth higher than 0. The entity definition can't have sites, shouldn't have religions or biomes, and I believe they can't be fortress-playable. They can be outsider-playable, but standard adventurer is probably impossible as well. I am 90% sure that you do not need to give them a special name - I've given my custom layer-linked civs names like KO_DF_DEEP_EVILS_EKODU, and they show up in the regionX-*-world-history.txt files just fine.
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ldog

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2015, 02:10:17 pm »

I've been playing with adding creatures lately, and the description of the PET tag is misleading. It's entirely possible for non-exotic pets to be absent from the embark screen if the civ never encounters them. Only the COMMON_DOMESTIC tag guarantees putting a creature on the embark list, and this also gives it to the human civs.

So is the PET tag necessary or not? I ask because I am sick of migrants showing up with livestock as pets, but I do want to be able to buy them on embark and from caravans. Other than cats and dogs (and really I'd rather be able to train all my dogs for war) I don't want any animals in the fort that aren't butcherable livestock.
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Dirst

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Re: The Civilization Cookbook
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2015, 02:15:54 pm »

I've been playing with adding creatures lately, and the description of the PET tag is misleading. It's entirely possible for non-exotic pets to be absent from the embark screen if the civ never encounters them. Only the COMMON_DOMESTIC tag guarantees putting a creature on the embark list, and this also gives it to the human civs.

So is the PET tag necessary or not? I ask because I am sick of migrants showing up with livestock as pets, but I do want to be able to buy them on embark and from caravans. Other than cats and dogs (and really I'd rather be able to train all my dogs for war) I don't want any animals in the fort that aren't butcherable livestock.
An animal needs [PET] or [PET_EXOTIC] to be domesticated at all.  So, yes you have the weirdness of people having livestock as family pets.  There might be a way to sever the pet relationship when an animal arrives on the map, but that's DFHackery above my skill level.
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