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Author Topic: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.  (Read 3663 times)

GoblinCookie

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Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« on: February 28, 2015, 07:50:16 am »

Let's face it.  There is just too much food in the game. While strictly speaking the amount of food in the game is not unrealistic, the real world has billions of people to feed rather than about a million (at the most).

Also creatures ought to eat more depending upon how big they are.  It would perhaps be a smart idea then to arrange the system so that both problems are solved at the same time. 

The present rate of food and drink consumption acts as the base.  All creatures consume an amount of food and drink on top of that depending upon how big they are.  The extra food and drink is not consumed seperately, instead it is all consumed in one sitting so the amount of labour available is not adjusted by any noticable amount.  Instead of getting 1 food item they pick up several, which with multiple hauling now in the game they can.

So the following system.

Size 10000: +1 unit
Size 20000: +2 units.
Size 30000: +3 units.
Size 40000: +4 units.
Size 50000: +5 units
Size 60000: +6 units.
Size 70000: +7 units
Size 80000: +8 units.
Size 80000+: +1 unit per 10000.

Drinks are consumed at half the rate, because drinks are already fairly scarce relatively.

Size 20000 +1 unit.
Size 40000 +2 units.
Size 60000 +3 units.
Size 80000 +4 units.
Size 80000+ +1 unit pre 20000.

Alchoholic beverages have calories in them, which lowers the amount of food items needing to be eaten during the next eating session.  Each unit of drinks consumed counts as one less food needing to be eaten for the next meal.  This means that the average dwarf consumes the following if he can.

3 units of food.
4 units of drink.

If forced to live on water, our miserable dwarf will instead have to eat 7 units of food instad.  The 4 units of drink that he drinks subtract 3 units from the total amount he has to eat.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 01:03:48 pm »

This makes sense. Good suggestion.
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Vattic

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 01:32:17 pm »

This is already the case for grazing animals. I'd imagine once non-grazers need to eat your tame dragons would need more meat than your dogs.
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2015, 08:13:48 pm »

The problem with this though is that dwarves will need to eat seven times as much. It's more realistic, but seven times as much. Seven times as much. That's a lot. That is a whole lot more food you're going to need. Just imagine the current amount of food you need for fortresses, then multiply it by seven. As it is you can easily end up running out of food early on in fortresses, but with this change you'd need to start calculating how efficient bringing animals and butchering them is on food for embark points compared to bringing food, only bringing one copper pickaxe and no axe to buy more food, and bring two proficient herbalists in order to even start a fortress. I think the best way to implement more food production difficulty is by adding in food spoilage, which I think there was a really good suggestion thread about pretty recently. because food spoilage means that you can have enough food early game, and you'll probably be able to feed dwarves in an emergency, but you'll need to put in more work if you want to export only food or survive a siege without any internal food production.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2015, 09:06:17 pm »

Or, you know, Toady could just increase the default embark points.  He does it every time he makes starting a fortress take potentially more points to accomplish, like when he added stepladders with all of the herbalism rewrite stuff.

vjmdhzgr

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2015, 09:08:29 pm »

Or, you know, Toady could just increase the default embark points.  He does it every time he makes starting a fortress take potentially more points to accomplish, like when he added stepladders with all of the herbalism rewrite stuff.
Really? Huh, didn't notice. Stepladders aren't even remotely necessary for starting a fortress. That could work.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 09:15:19 pm »

Or, you know, Toady could just increase the default embark points.  He does it every time he makes starting a fortress take potentially more points to accomplish, like when he added stepladders with all of the herbalism rewrite stuff.
Really? Huh, didn't notice. Stepladders aren't even remotely necessary for starting a fortress. That could work.
I thought so too on the stepladders thing, but he did anyway and one is included in the basic embark.

IndigoFenix

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 12:54:47 am »

Nutrition is based on many factors, including size, activity level, and efficiency of the digestive system.

How about making nutritional needs raw defined?  Each creature could have a value for how much their food and drink counters lower per frame.  Also, each material could have a value determining how filling it is, with separate values for food and drink.  A single nut should not fill you up as much as a whole watermelon, and fruit could contain some water which reduces thirst when eaten.  This would make a lot more sense than the current grazing system.

GoblinCookie

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 08:16:25 am »

The problem with this though is that dwarves will need to eat seven times as much. It's more realistic, but seven times as much. Seven times as much. That's a lot. That is a whole lot more food you're going to need. Just imagine the current amount of food you need for fortresses, then multiply it by seven. As it is you can easily end up running out of food early on in fortresses, but with this change you'd need to start calculating how efficient bringing animals and butchering them is on food for embark points compared to bringing food, only bringing one copper pickaxe and no axe to buy more food, and bring two proficient herbalists in order to even start a fortress. I think the best way to implement more food production difficulty is by adding in food spoilage, which I think there was a really good suggestion thread about pretty recently. because food spoilage means that you can have enough food early game, and you'll probably be able to feed dwarves in an emergency, but you'll need to put in more work if you want to export only food or survive a siege without any internal food production.

If we just add in food spoilage all that will happen is we end up with vast mountains of rotting food because the present food production rates are so much higher than food consumption rates such that the only way to avoid mountains of rotting food would be to export it, simply in order so it can rot away somewhere else; thus the economic madness of trade as it present stands.

Fool spoilage requires increased nutrional requirements to exist, not the other way around.  Eating seven time as much would not be unmanagable, it would just mean that we would have to expend a greater amount of labour time fishing, gathering, hunting and farming.  In most biomes there are plants just waiting to be picked and eaten, early in the game herbalism may well be an option, if you start near a river then you can fish, otherwise you can generally hunt down animals.

Nutrition is based on many factors, including size, activity level, and efficiency of the digestive system.

How about making nutritional needs raw defined?  Each creature could have a value for how much their food and drink counters lower per frame.  Also, each material could have a value determining how filling it is, with separate values for food and drink.  A single nut should not fill you up as much as a whole watermelon, and fruit could contain some water which reduces thirst when eaten.  This would make a lot more sense than the current grazing system.

Actually I would rather keep it simple at 1 food unit per eating unit.  That is because units of food are sort of arbitery anyway, so 1 unit of meat can easily contain as much calories as 1 unit of fruit, but in reality there are far more fruits in a fruit unit than meat in a meat unit. 

I would not object to bieng able to put a raw modifier into the system to adjust the food requirements of a creature by a certain amount.  The default amount should be what you are working on and you then adjust the amount using a custom tag.  The idea of having fruit count as drink is a pretty good one as well, we can make it work backwards from the drinks count as food. 

So if a dwarf eat 4 units of fruit then he has to drink one less unit of drinks at his next drinking session.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 04:51:23 pm »

A good idea. Increased comsumption and rotting should go together.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 05:38:48 pm »

A good idea. Increased comsumption and rotting should go together.

It is more correct to say that they *must* go together.  The alternative rather stinks.  :D
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4maskwolf

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 05:54:21 pm »

A good idea. Increased comsumption and rotting should go together.

It is more correct to say that they *must* go together.  The alternative rather stinks.  :D
Hehehe.

utunnels

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 08:10:45 pm »

I prefer that we define that in raws.
There are some animals who eat less because they seldom move at all, and some may have faster metabolism.

Although it is a good idea to use the size to calculate their default values.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adjust food and drink consumption based upon creature size.
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 06:20:16 am »

I prefer that we define that in raws.
There are some animals who eat less because they seldom move at all, and some may have faster metabolism.

Although it is a good idea to use the size to calculate their default values.

That is the basic idea, have a default value based upon size and modify it by a particular tag. 
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