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[NTJedi]

I think everyone here would be happy with more gamers playing dwarf fortress since it increases revenue for the two creators as well as increasing mods for the game. I see many features and game depth which dwarf fortress provides which simply don't exist within other games or is simply done better by dwarf fortress. With such a great game I began checking with other gamers why this game wasn't being played as compared to other games such as minecraft, civilization, etc., etc., .  These other games have a massive following yet weaker game depth.

The vast majority of gamers informed me they simply found the graphics as too weak, even importing the modded graphic packages wasn't enough to keep them playing long enough to discover the beauty inside the game itself. The game doesn't need fancy graphics... basic 2D would work just enough where the visual allows the imagination to understand what's coming upon the first time a gamer sees it.

Dwarf fortress easily has greater game depth than minecraft... I'm just wondering when will dwarf fortress become more visually appealing in order to lure the massive number of gamers in the world, thus doubling or tripling the size of donations to the game each month. The game will also receive more praise and recognition by the gaming community as popularity grows.

I realize updating the graphics inside the game would be a HUGE project, but based on the benefits afterwards it feels like the right path. I like playing dwarf fortress now... just mentioning what I found holding back the game on popularity.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

If I recall correctly, the community managed to get 40.11 to display the game in Isometric.  It's a matter of time to get the components to update if so.

[Deboche]

When people complain about DF's graphics, I feel like headbutting them.

Some of the best and most immersive games I've played had lousy graphics, like colonization and nexus kingdom of winds. Also muds.

The first time I tried DF, the graphics stung a bit but what drove me away was the interface and the learning curve. What made me try it again was how immersive the game seemed to be from what people were saying.

[King_of_Baboons]

When people complain about DF's graphics, I feel like headbutting them.

Some of the best and most immersive games I've played had lousy graphics, like colonization and nexus kingdom of winds. Also muds.

The first time I tried DF, the graphics stung a bit but what drove me away was the interface and the learning curve. What made me try it again was how immersive the game seemed to be from what people were saying.

This is why I started to play this game.

Sure the graphics are little confusing when you first play and sometimes I still forget the controls (so many buttons to push) but this is was not enough to draw me away from the game.

Seriously,how many games do you know that are able to create a random world,track down every single creature from that world,generate 1000 years of simulated history,count how many died during that time,have NPCs that can actually have emotions and families,a deep wound system,generating distinct civilizations with their own culture and religion,etc.....

The best part?This is still in alpha version.If a game can have sooo much content in an alpha....imagine how much content we will have in the full version.I remember Toady saying that it would take 20 years for this game to be complete or something like that.And when those 20 years of wait are over there will be only one thing to say:

"Worth the wait." 

[PrimusRibbus]

The graphics aren't DF's primary problem, the poor UI and lack of documentation are. Focus on the low-hanging fruit first: Roguelike fans, retro gamers, and city-building fans who want to play and have played previously but are turned off to the muscle memory hurdles that you have to overcome to get the most out of DF.

[NTJedi]

I completely agree the dwarf fortress game is great for those of us already here! 
As much as we love everything about the game, it's being pushed aside by most gamers because of the graphics. 

We can't expect other gamers to change when their missing a great treasure. It's like asking girlfriends to walk thru a swamp because you wanted to show a beautiful sunset with a waterfall background... most won't walk far enough to discover the real treasure.

Adding some basic graphics is the same as clearing a path through the swamp. We don't need the clear path, but those other gamers need to the clear path to reach the game... thus bringing more gamers, more mods and more money here.

[InfinityOps]

Call me a hipster, but I'm honestly content with the size of the DF fandom, and I don't think it needs extra droves of people like what happened with Minecraft.

Don't get me wrong: It's nice to see someone else learning to play the game. But we have a pretty good thing going for us right now. The DF community is one of the nicest and most helpful groups of people I've ever seen, and I think that is because DF attracts a certain type of person.

Interest in the game will grow over time, but I like how it is now. A few dedicated people churn out mods and graphics that make the game more interesting or easy to play, and I'm thankful for those hardworking people. I just don't want this community to become huge, because it will inevitably go to sh*t.

[mifki]

Call me a hipster, but I'm honestly content with the size of the DF fandom, and I don't think it needs extra droves of people like what happened with Minecraft.

More people - more donations to Toady.

[InfinityOps]

Call me a hipster, but I'm honestly content with the size of the DF fandom, and I don't think it needs extra droves of people like what happened with Minecraft.

More people - more donations to Toady.

Yeah, you have a point. Toady deserves to be compensated for all of his hard work. And it's not like he's making the game for profit, so people can't just loudly demand changes to be made.

I've always been a pretty adamant believer in Sturgeon's Law. And whenever I think of more people, I think of needless chaos...kind of like dwarves.

[utunnels]

To be honest I think currently there are many problems, and the graphics part is the least one I care about.

I prefer to play under graphic mode, though. I must thank those who create all those wonderful third party tools and contents.
I highly doubt Toady will have enough resources to create a graphical front end in the near future, unless they decide to recruit a team...our best bet so far is they make the game more moddable.

So there are dfhack and other third party tools. Given time and efforts, it is totally possible to create a shiny graphical front end (I believe there are already some good ones. If they don't please you, maybe it is a really difficult task.).

[mifki]

Call me a hipster, but I'm honestly content with the size of the DF fandom, and I don't think it needs extra droves of people like what happened with Minecraft.

More people - more donations to Toady.

Yeah, you have a point. Toady deserves to be compensated for all of his hard work. And it's not like he's making the game for profit, so people can't just loudly demand changes to be made.

I've always been a pretty adamant believer in Sturgeon's Law. And whenever I think of more people, I think of needless chaos...kind of like dwarves.

I partly agree with you, but DF is a complex game anyway and more friendly graphics won't make it much simpler to play and attractive to the kind of people you don't want to see here.
There's some borderline beyond which the game is not attractive even for people we'd want here, for me it was graphics/text issues I've fixed with TWBT. I doubt I'd play DF if I couldn't make TWBT. For other people that may be something else.

[smakemupagus]

If Toady working on graphics increased donations by X, but slowed down his progress by Y, there would be some values of X and Y for which it would not be worth it.  I am sure he's thought about it.  (for example he provides support for graphic tiles already...)

[Dirst]

I'm in the camp that says graphics aren't the binding constraint, but UI and learning curve.

When Toady mentions a UI overhaul, it's usually in the context of graphics, but the issue is coming up with a unified idea of how the player interacts with his/her adventurer or fort citizens to interact with the incredibly rich game world.  This would entail a virtual dead stop for feature development for a while, and I'd hope that during that time Toady is engaged with the community.  Sure, a lot of the old hands are fine with pressing CTRL-Shift-Middle Mouse Button while facing east and tugging on the right earlobe... But there's a lot of collective memory about what confuses new players.

As for the learning curve, in principle that can be done by the community.  A starter pack can come pre-loaded with worlds, documentation and assignments... complete with DFHack plugins that monitor the tutorial games with advice and feedback. Hijacking the random number generator might help.  Maybe even some stupid badges.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see the tutorials encompass tasks like installing a mod, and even ultimately having the player mod something simple.  I breathlessly await the lesson on minecarts...

[4maskwolf]

Me personally, I agree with InfinityOps.  I want Toady to be well compensated for all of the hard work he has put into a game that he gives away for free, which would require more people to be here.  But on the other hand, more people equals more debates, more bad apples, and more time Toady has to spend moderating, which causes problems for development if he has to do that too much.  I remember when .40.01 came out at least two people created threads expressing their dissatisfaction with the way progress was going that sparked heated debates, and more people would massively increase that.  I recommend dwarf fortress to people who I think would enjoy it, but I don't just go around trying to get all the gamers I know to play it.

About the whole graphics debate: I'm not sure why people feel they need graphics to play the game.  I respect that you feel that way, it's just not a feeling I've ever had, so I have difficulty understanding it from an intuitive level.  I enjoy playing with the ASCII graphics and MWDF actually irked me when I tried to play it because of the graphics.  The time it would take to implement graphics into the game on a major level and then slowly update them with each new feature would be a major drain on the game's development, and I'm not sure what Toady wants with regards to graphics anyway.  Because in the end, this is Toady's game.

About the whole documentation thing, we the people of dwarf fortress could create that.  We could collectively write text file tutorials on how to do things in the game for people to follow and include it in the newb packs, which may already have actually happened and I just don't know about it because I've never downloaded it.  The wiki is helpful but it's somewhat clunky and difficult to find what you want, but it wouldn't be that large of an undertaking for the community if it hasn't been done already.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Wasn't graphics one of the contributing factors to the death of Armok Chapter 1?

As for the learning curve, in principle that can be done by the community.  A starter pack can come pre-loaded with worlds, documentation and assignments... complete with DFHack plugins that monitor the tutorial games with advice and feedback. Hijacking the random number generator might help.  Maybe even some stupid badges.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see the tutorials encompass tasks like installing a mod, and even ultimately having the player mod something simple.  I breathlessly await the lesson on minecarts...

...Be right back, creating that thread if it hasn't been.