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[Eschar]

I've just realised something. Many people, in arguments about Kevin's strict interpretation of what the game should be about, say "well, it's really Kevin's game, you should be grateful he lets you work on it." But... It's not Kevin's game, because other devs have worked on it. He didn't write all the code that makes up CDDA. They did. That code, and thus most of the game, is theirs. Sure, they might have signed it over to him or public domain or something - I'm not sure how attribution works in the CDDA project - but ultimately, those contributions aren't his. The only thing he owns is the code as it was given to him by Whales (and he certainly didn't write that either) and any code he himself wrote. Make no mistake: Kevin has control over the GitHub account, but this sure as hell isn't his game.

[AzyWng]

What do you think we should do about the matter?

[Eschar]

What do you think we should do about the matter?

No idea. A fork is going to be hard to draw people to (both current and future contributors and future players) ... unless it's publicly and loudly announced after some action by Kevin that outrages a LOT of the devs. Or unless we spread a large compilation of all of his offenses and use the outrage possibly generated from that?

[Robsoie]

Forks have been tried by a few devs disagreeing with the CDDA direction in the past and have all ended being abandonned (due to lack of devs) as the majority of the coding capable people working on CDDA obviously do not disagree with where CDDA is going and prefer to continue working on it.

[se5a]

You really only need one person to fork, and not abandon long enough to create a viable alternative. problem is these days no one has the stickablilty to do thing on their own.

[Erk]

Please, if you don't like the survival simulation of the main game, feel free take over one of the many attempts at a packaged mod for a different game balance and attitude to realism. Those of us involved in developing the core game are not only receptive but completely invitational towards someone wanting to curate Aftershock with some sort of unified vision. We're not going to do it, we have our own game we're making and by and large no interest in what Aftershock is offering, but there's both design space and a welcoming team to anyone who wants to manage it. It would be very nice to have someone operating it, so that when someone wants to play something different from what we're doing we can just say "go play Aftershock, that's why we bundle it."

As magiclysm demonstrates, there's no opposition to packaged mods that go in completely different directions from the dark days ahead goals. They can even have deep roots in added game code.

To date, nobody has ever maintained one of these mods for long. It's not through lack of us asking them to stay.

[dpwb]

What do you think we should do about the matter?

No idea. A fork is going to be hard to draw people to (both current and future contributors and future players) ... unless it's publicly and loudly announced after some action by Kevin that outrages a LOT of the devs. Or unless we spread a large compilation of all of his offenses and use the outrage possibly generated from that?

I'd like to see that list.
Viva la revolucion, comrade.

[Egan_BW]

Forkalution?

[dpwb]

I've just realised something. Many people, in arguments about Kevin's strict interpretation of what the game should be about, say "well, it's really Kevin's game, you should be grateful he lets you work on it." But... It's not Kevin's game, because other devs have worked on it. He didn't write all the code that makes up CDDA. They did. That code, and thus most of the game, is theirs. Sure, they might have signed it over to him or public domain or something - I'm not sure how attribution works in the CDDA project - but ultimately, those contributions aren't his. The only thing he owns is the code as it was given to him by Whales (and he certainly didn't write that either) and any code he himself wrote. Make no mistake: Kevin has control over the GitHub account, but this sure as hell isn't his game.

You do realise, you've just described open-source?

The github repository is his game, anybody can fork it and make their own game, theyd own that one. He can do what he likes with his repository.
Contributors dont own the game collectively, or own their contributions, the license is CC-BY-SA.
Instead of the constant nasty and insulting childish comments about Kevins "offences" , him having the sheer temerity! to make and curate the game he wants to make, how about people fork and make their own.

God forbid somebody makes the game they want to make, they then get people insulting them for years because they arent making the game the vocal hecklers want them to make.

Considering the fact that the game is more popular than ever, and has more contributions from devs than ever before, id say hes doing something right, and it says a lot about the attitude of certain people, that ill be accused of being a "yes-man" and "sucking up" to him, for defending him, its happened before,  as if its impossible for an adult to be able to work with another adult on good terms, because they broadly agree and enjoy the games direction, not everything has to be some holy crusade against this nebulous authority figure.

And if you are thinking "I shouldnt have to fork the game" then what you are basically saying is that you assume that Kevin should make the game that *YOU* want him to make, for free, that is definition of entitlement, what about all the people who do like realism simulation? do they matter? how about people accept that their subjective likes and dislikes are just that, subjective, there are a thousand ways to enjoy a game.

For example : in this thread, I personally, was called a "dense fuck" for nerfing the Joint-Torsion Ratchet, even though it fits the theme of the game that Kevin is  making for that CBM to be more realistic, its internally consistent.

This is not all aimed at you, specifically, but prompted by this kinda attitude I see in this thread continuously from the usual suspects.

[Eschar]

What do you think we should do about the matter?

No idea. A fork is going to be hard to draw people to (both current and future contributors and future players) ... unless it's publicly and loudly announced after some action by Kevin that outrages a LOT of the devs. Or unless we spread a large compilation of all of his offenses and use the outrage possibly generated from that?

I'd like to see that list.
Viva la revolucion, comrade.

I'm not familiar with all of them, I'm just going off the general Bay12/Reddit attitude of him. My only contribution so far has been a few spelling/grammar fixes, which don't really mess with realism much.

Realistically though, unless something happens that makes the majority of contributors unhappy with Kevin, a revolution sort of thing will probably just be a distraction to the project (and unless we have an absolutely fabulously watertight case for why [iIall[/i] these people should up and leave, pretty silly-looking too.)

I stand by my annoyance at people who claim that it's "Kevin's game" though, or people who try to bash dissenters over the head about their "lack of gratitude." These people pop up on Reddit occasionally.

I've just realised something. Many people, in arguments about Kevin's strict interpretation of what the game should be about, say "well, it's really Kevin's game, you should be grateful he lets you work on it." But... It's not Kevin's game, because other devs have worked on it. He didn't write all the code that makes up CDDA. They did. That code, and thus most of the game, is theirs. Sure, they might have signed it over to him or public domain or something - I'm not sure how attribution works in the CDDA project - but ultimately, those contributions aren't his. The only thing he owns is the code as it was given to him by Whales (and he certainly didn't write that either) and any code he himself wrote. Make no mistake: Kevin has control over the GitHub account, but this sure as hell isn't his game.

You do realise, you've just described open-source?

The github repository is his game, anybody can fork it and make their own game, theyd own that one. He can do what he likes with his repository.
Contributors dont own the game collectively, or own their contributions, the license is CC-BY-SA.
Instead of the constant nasty and insulting childish comments about Kevins "offences" , him having the sheer temerity! to make and curate the game he wants to make, how about people fork and make their own.

God forbid somebody makes the game they want to make, they then get people insulting them for years because they arent making the game the vocal hecklers want them to make.

Considering the fact that the game is more popular than ever, and has more contributions from devs than ever before, id say hes doing something right, and it says a lot about the attitude of certain people, that ill be accused of being a "yes-man" and "sucking up" to him, for defending him, its happened before,  as if its impossible for an adult to be able to work with another adult on good terms, because they broadly agree and enjoy the games direction, no everything has to be some holy crusade against this nebulous authority figure.

I wasn't criticizing Kevin himself in that post. I was dismantling the premises of a certain argument used by a few Redditors. I didn't make that clear, nor was I familiar with what license CDDA uses (as I mentioned), nor am I really familiar with the problems some have with him/the direction he wants to take the game (two different topics, keep in mind, and so I apologise for coming off as a holy crusader ... especially since I tend to turn to turn these sort of conflicts into holy crusades (internally.)

[dpwb]

Sure, apologies, I was quoting you, as just a useful handle to reply to an amalgamation of the general feel of a few of the other posts.

[Eschar]

Sure, apologies, I was quoting you, as just a useful handle to reply to an amalgamation of the general feel of a few of the other posts.

Understood. No hard feelings.

[Soadreqm]

A fork is going to be hard to draw people to (both current and future contributors and future players) ... unless it's publicly and loudly announced after some action by Kevin that outrages a LOT of the devs. Or unless we spread a large compilation of all of his offenses and use the outrage possibly generated from that?

The real secret is that it doesn't matter. You don't need other contributors, and you certainly don't need players. If you want to make changes, just make them. If your fork is a better game than mainline, people will start playing it instead. If it isn't, well, I guess that means Kevin is doing something right.

He has a lot of bad ideas about what the game should be like, but if no one is willing to put in the work to fix it, then there's little point in whining.

[Flying Dice]

Please, if you don't like the survival simulation of the main game

This right here is what some of you don't seem to grasp. Cataclysm was a cyberpunk/post-apoc kitchen sink roguelike, not a survival sim. It was like that through the entire lifespan of the game, including well into DDA, with only a relative handful of realism fetishists. It only became what it is now because Kevin banned or drove off enough contributors and players who disagreed with him. And please, let's not pretend that forking is trivial. It's a full-time job, potentially for years, doing the work of the entire dev community mostly alone for no pay until you attract enough people for things to stabilize.

People dislike Kevin because he fundamentally altered the nature of the base game to suit his own preferences (i.e. clotheswashing farming tedium simulator 2kcurrentyear) while destroying popular playstyles, and because of his socially oblivious, aggressive, nasty attitude towards anyone that doesn't blindly support everything he does.

We didn't start out at the level of vitriol, Kevin escalated it to this point with his own shitty behavior over the course of years.

[Erk]

Sorry you're not interested in the game we're all enjoying making and playing, but we're making the game we're enjoying. You could fork and make a game you want to play, or add a mod for the gameplay you want, but I will never understand why you feel entitled to order someone else to not direct their branch of the game how they want to direct it... Particularly not a group of a few dozen people who are frankly having a really good time making and playing it like this. Okay, it's not the game you liked a few years ago, but apparently you don't have the skill or ability to make what you do want so you're just sitting on the sidelines spreading ire at people who do.