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Author Topic: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!  (Read 1453 times)

Niddhoger

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Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« on: March 31, 2015, 03:01:50 am »

Just like the title suggests! Toady already talked about coding new multi-material instruments (he mentioned various textile strings on a wood/metal frame).  For years we've been talking about making beds out of other materials.  Some have even mentioned carving them out of the stone when mining out rooms! However, I've always favored frame+padding+fabric/leather.  Since we will be able to generate wood instruments with jute strings, why not a stone bed with feather padding covered in silk? :D Not only would this give a purpose to some rather useless objects in game, but it just makes more bloody since and prevents the whole "no wood, no beds" issue.  We can use stone/metal beds and then make mattresses out of the chicken feathers, (unprocessed) wool, and animal-hair as stuffing.  Currently, you tend to produce far more animal-hair thread than your hospital can use... especially considering your sneaky doctors tend to grab your masterfully dyed GCS thread for suturing... bastards.  Straw and various leaves (palm fronds namely) have historically been used as beds too.  On that note, straw could be a useful by-product of harvesting/processing grains.  Not only could it be used as mattress stuffing, but could be burnt as a fuel or woven into hats, but that is an entirely different topic!

Hell, the ancient Persians even had water beds XD.

Early on, we can just make simple beds that are little more than a slab/wooden block as we have them now.  We can also make cots that exist as frame+sheet really (leather or unit of cloth).  Then there would be the deluxe bed as we know them now... frame+mattress+sheets.  This could even be a noble requirement! Other than decorations, do you really think your good-fer-nothing noble wants to sleep on the same bed as MERE PEASANTS!? No! He wants a candy-frame (pimped with diamonds), roc-feather filled bed covered in GCS silk dyed as black as the lump of coal he has for a heart. 

Frames would be made by whoever the hell handles the material.  Carpenters would naturally make wooden beds and blacksmiths metal ones.  I suppose potters could make clay frames?  We can then place that bed as we normally do for basic sleeping.  Later, we can go to a clothesmakers shop/leatherworks (or just a craftdorfs shop) to make the mattress.  We'd select "cloth/leather mattress" and then select the bedding material as a sub menu.  I imagine using a similar setup to making gem windows for placing the full bed.  First we'd select a frame then select a mattress.  Mattresses could also be thrown on the ground to count as "cloth" beds, but only mattress+frame would count as a "full" bed.  To differentiate between the two, we could rename the bare frame to just "cot" and save "bed" for the mattress+cot.

For practical purposes, better beds would not only increase happiness but let dorfs rest better.  They could get a "well-rested" buff that gives them a buff to their energy (fatigue slower).  Sleeping in the dirt could also give a penalty- this would also incentive building early beds.  As it stands, they only grumble a bit until they see a couple of statues or a "well built" bridge.  The main point of this is to alleviate the "wood crunch" on low-wood maps.  Sure, we can breach the caverns... but giant cave crocs and trolls live there too.  Generally, we'll need wood to build traps before breaching the caverns to gain the wood for said traps (plus beds).  Wood is often needed as a fuel source for metal smithing as well (for metal cages/weapons).  The other points would be added realism as mattress date as far back as the neolithic (that we know of) and virtually ever civilization has their own version of them.  From throwing padding on the floor to straw mats to hammocks to elaborate canopy beds (speaking of hammocks, rope+couple of clothe units would count as a bed).  The final reason is trying to find a bloody use for animal hair and feathers >.> I just hate accumulating so much useless stuff.  Its especially glaring with feathers.  Its not like any civilization has ever tried to decorate clothes, weapons, and/or furniture with THOSE. *sigh*
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utunnels

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 03:43:50 am »

Yeah, in real life there are more items made from multiple materials than made from single material. I recall in some game you need to actually make armor components before you assemble them into armors....

 While I like your idea, maybe we need to balance between "more details" and "too complicated to play".

In real life, you can't just make a stairway using some stone boulder, nor can you make a gem window out of 3 random gems....but we just ignore those details when playing DF.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 03:45:59 am by utunnels »
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Deboche

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 05:36:01 am »

Yeah, in real life there are more items made from multiple materials than made from single material. I recall in some game you need to actually make armor components before you assemble them into armors....
This would make sense for most weapons as well. You can't make a crossbow out of wood without anything else.

The thing with beds is that it's the only thing in DF right now which forces you to cut trees or buy wood.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 07:27:48 am »

This would make sense for most weapons as well. You can't make a crossbow out of wood without anything else.

The thing with beds is that it's the only thing in DF right now which forces you to cut trees or buy wood.

However once dynamic demands are in the game none of that would apply, since individual dwarves would demand that they have beds of a given material, including potentially wood. 
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Niddhoger

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 06:15:39 pm »

I suppose the beds could simply be reduced to "frame+padding"  So we could build metal+wool beds or stone+feathers.  If anything, I really want to keep the bedding for currently useless materials.  It would probably be best to have them built on site like gem windows due to UI workshop clunkiness. 

And yeah... a ton of items are missing from certain crafting jobs.  Everyone always jokes about how dorfs grind jewels with their teeth/beards, but I always assumed the required tools were created when the workshop was built (part of the shop, specifically).  I'm talking more like how you don't need water to brew booze! A few juicy fruits we might can get by w/out adding water... but how do we brew wheat into beer without a single drop of extra water!?  Cooking never requires heat or water either.  Weapons don't need wooden/bone hafts, crossbows have no strings, etc.
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Deboche

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 06:25:50 pm »

That's all part of the temporary nature of DF. The furnaces and kitchens also don't produce smoke, nobody poops, a gigantic dragon takes up 1 tile while a wagon takes up 3 and I'm sure you've seen the picture of what a mule in an elven caravan looks like. Some of these problems will be addressed.

Personally, I don't mind that trees become non-essential.

EDIT: Wagon actually takes up 9.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:24:41 am by Deboche »
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Insanegame27

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 09:43:01 pm »

That's all part of the temporary nature of DF. The furnaces and kitchens also don't produce smoke, nobody poops, a gigantic dragon takes up 1 tile while a wagon takes up 3 and I'm sure you've seen the picture of what a mule in an elven caravan looks like. Some of these problems will be addressed.

Personally, I don't mind that trees become non-essential.

Spoiler: elven cruelty (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 09:48:37 pm by Insanegame27 »
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Salmeuk

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2015, 03:40:50 am »

Embarks laden with Feather trees would be sought after should padding be implemented.

While I agree that adding more steps in a crafting process is sometimes a needless complication, bed creation has always stood out to me in that only wood is required. I shelf this particular qualm with things like engraving without tools, but it is also the first inconsistency that could be fixed without too much complexity.

Much like your ability to encrust individual items and the process of turning Quarry bushes into edible products, bed creation could be treated like an additional action at the clothiers (wouldn't that make sense to have the dwarf who tailors all the cloth be the one to fit and stuff a padded mattress?). Something like "Mattress Bed" or "Fit Bed with Mattress".

I think allowing beds to be made as normal then later upgraded would provide another useful tool for delineating noble from peasant. If the econ ever kicks in, perhaps dwarfs would pay more to sleep in a bed padded with cloth and feathers. And as suggested above, a basic requirement for nobility could be these upgraded beds.

This wouldn't complicated things much further as the upgraded beds would be rarely needed, and like some current dwarf-pleasing devices represent a larger reward traded for a longer creation process.

. . .

Perhaps futons? heh.

I wonder if you could make a bed from giant cave spider silk. You would need a lot, and would it compress completely or stay somewhat plush over time?
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SimRobert2001

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2015, 06:51:39 am »

There would still be such a thing a too much complexity. With crossbows only requiring wood, you are able to have some combat ability. When something requires more than one item, it can become hard to keep track of. Especially the way each workshop uses partial bars. Nothing else can use that same bar. So, which of 3 carpentry workshops has the bar? This may involve a change in hauling, mayerial tracking, and interface feedback. Also serup time, material quality, and job handling become an issue. Are you really going to put 50+ raw material items and tools in each workshop?

Plus setup time. Right now you can have 7 beds by the time dwarfs sleep on embark. With multi materials, you now have to smelt the iron, and bring it to the workshop. If you were to have palm fronds as a bed, its not an issue
UNTIL it decays, of course.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 07:19:47 am »

There would still be such a thing a too much complexity. With crossbows only requiring wood, you are able to have some combat ability. When something requires more than one item, it can become hard to keep track of. Especially the way each workshop uses partial bars. Nothing else can use that same bar. So, which of 3 carpentry workshops has the bar? This may involve a change in hauling, mayerial tracking, and interface feedback. Also serup time, material quality, and job handling become an issue. Are you really going to put 50+ raw material items and tools in each workshop?

Plus setup time. Right now you can have 7 beds by the time dwarfs sleep on embark. With multi materials, you now have to smelt the iron, and bring it to the workshop. If you were to have palm fronds as a bed, its not an issue
UNTIL it decays, of course.

Actually that is mostly not true.  Essentially the process of gathering up the raw materials for a final item are already being done autonomously by the dwarves.  If we have crossbows require crossbow strings then all we do is designate the production of 30 crossbow strings and then the dwarves will on their own help themselves to 30 logs to make the crossbows. 

All we need to have is memorize a list of the items needed to make the finished item and dwarves will make those items when they are designated to be made provided that the needed materials are in stock.  The main problem is competition between different productive activities using the same materials. 
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Deboche

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 07:33:27 am »

Maybe we can have it both ways. Either tell them to make 30 crossbow strings or tell them to make 30 crossbows and they take care of the whole process. This would also make it easier to produce stuff like rock nut soap, which requires a lot of different steps.

As for metal bars, I'm sure it's not that hard for DF to keep track of fractions. It already does that when melting metal items.

So you need 30 iron crossbow parts and each takes up 1/4 of a bar. That's 7 1/2 bars. The metalsmith will just keep 1/2 bar of iron for future projects.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Multi-material instruments? Multi-material beds!
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 08:36:49 am »

Plus setup time. Right now you can have 7 beds by the time dwarfs sleep on embark. With multi materials, you now have to smelt the iron, and bring it to the workshop. If you were to have palm fronds as a bed, its not an issue
UNTIL it decays, of course.

Huh? I never said to remove wood from bed making.  I said that we should have the OPTION to use other materials- not that we should -only- be able to use other materials.  If you have shit tons of something like nickel (and access to magma forges... lets say volcano embark), but want to save what little wood you have (you are also in a tundra!) for lightweight bins/barrels you can make nickel beds.  Obviously you wouldn't wait -that- long to make the first ones and you'd make wooden beds (likely imported wood) for the initial 7 along with a couple migrant waves.  The later waves would get metal beds. 

While I agree that adding more steps in a crafting process is sometimes a needless complication, bed creation has always stood out to me in that only wood is required.

I think allowing beds to be made as normal then later upgraded would provide another useful tool for delineating noble from peasant.

This wouldn't complicated things much further as the upgraded beds would be rarely needed, and like some current dwarf-pleasing devices represent a larger reward traded for a longer creation process.

These frame-only beds would serve as normal DF beds.  However, you can then turn around and reuse the frames when assembling a "proper" bed with a mattress.  Think gem windows/making a traction bench (but with more control).  I don't think the -entire- bed should be assembled at the clothier, but they'd be a prime choice to make mattresses in the first place.  We don't get to choose materials outside metalworking as it is, so no need to separately list all the "jute fiber mattress, brown recluse silk mattress, alpaca yarn mattress, etc" in the UI.  We can just have mattress-> cloth/silk/yarn.  The specific (GCS, FB, Recluse, normal cave spider) be picked like any stone or wood is otherwise for their respective jobs.  Bedding will be a tag added to raws and then picked up along with w/e material unit of cloth the clothier picks up.  At most, we'd have a screen/workshop order option that turns off using wool as a padding to force using the lower grade fillers (feathers/useless animal hair). 

We already have linking levers and loading weapon traps as multi-item "builds," the trick is that building a bed out of frame+mattress on spot would need to swap to a different list after selecting the frame.  This would be the preferred method as it would allow us to better control quality.  We don't want our pimped out out rose-gold and sapphire frame ment for the duke to get paired with a shoddy donkey-hair stuffed jute mattress any more than we want that roc-feather and GCS silk mattress dyed with silver bards to wind up paired with a rickety tower cap frame. 

I wonder if you could make a bed from giant cave spider silk. You would need a lot, and would it compress completely or stay somewhat plush over time?

This is why I talk of padding.  The GCS would only serve as the lining of the mattress/sheets while the feathers/straw/horse hair would serve as the "meat" of the mattress.  As you said, the silk would just flatten unless you used a ton of it.  This is also why I specifically mentioned using WOOL and not yarn.  Yarn is the process thread ready for sewing whereas wool is basically just sheared right off the animal- all soft and fluffy.  Just like needing multiple wafers/bars when forging a metal item, I'd also imagine you'd need more than a single unit of wool/hair/feathers to create an entire mattress.  A full-grown sheep wears 7 units of wool afterall.  Just one of those can make a pair of socks... and you need more than socks to support a mattress :p
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