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Author Topic: No invasions?  (Read 1369 times)

Dwarf_Fever

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No invasions?
« on: March 28, 2015, 01:55:12 pm »

So when I chose an embark site, I had neighboring civilizations, goblins, etc. However, when I check "c" with my fortress, it only lists my own dwarven civ. No sieges etc arrive. One of the recent dwarven caravans had a goblin liaison, interestingly enough. Is this a bug, and should I generate a new world, or is there something I am missing?
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Witty

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2015, 02:02:37 pm »

The c menu only shows the civs that have visited your fort. They won't show up until then. Humans and elves will typically send their caravans after the first year. Goblins and kobolds will vary, and as of the recent version may not show up at all due to invasion quirks/bugs.

Goblin nobles are very common for non-goblin civs, for various reasons. 
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2015, 02:05:57 pm »

Oh, thanks a lot. Still, I'm a few years in, and haven't even had any snatchers - so I gather this is the bugs/quirks you were talking about.

Will they eventually happen if this quirk comes up, or should I start over?
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Witty

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2015, 02:16:51 pm »

Invasions are just a lot rarer now, and a lot weaker when they do happen.

Since sieges now draw from actual civ populations, it leads to some weirdness that hasn't been fully tested. Snatchers, thieves and kobolds don't seem to interact with player forts anymore, sadly. I haven't seen any in the forts I've played, and from what I've read no one else really has either. Goblin sieges do happen, but it really depends on the state the goblin civ is in. If they're at war with another civ and losing badly, chances are you won't see any sieges or ambushes. If the civ is doing alright, they should come eventually. But as I've said, bugs might prevent it.

.40 really altered the way sieges interact with the outside world, and there are some major issues. Hopefully it'll get looked at again someday. 
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2015, 02:21:10 pm »

You are a scholar and a gentleman, even if the news is quite disappointing. I guess I might load up one of the older versions of DF.
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BoredVirulence

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 02:53:02 pm »

Conventional wisdom holds that proximity has a lot to do with it.
They don't just draw population from their civ, they have to actually dispatch an army to travel to your site, and your site is just one of many targets. Its a necessary step of realism that, for now, prevents the endless-wave attacks on player fortresses.

Its generally a good idea to try and find a site near the goblins. Or a necromancer tower, they siege much more regularly for some reason. Maybe the goblins are busy attacking necromancers, and the necromancers are sending you the undead goblins...
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m-logik

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 03:30:43 pm »

Kobolds do still come.
As for goblins sieges, I'm not sure their rarity is actually a bug. At least I haven't seen where Toady has said so (I am open to being corrected on this point). I think that the simulation is getting better, which means more "realistic" behavior from goblins. I don't feel it's realistic to expect the goblins to put together a war band just because a group of dwarves have managed to stay alive in a little outpost for two years, or that they should come like clockwork every winter as they have in previous versions. You said your fort is only a few years old. Give it more time, increase your standing in your civ. If they haven't shown up after a decade, then maybe something has awry.
Far be it for me to tell anyone how to play, but I think that if the central feature of your dwarf fortress experience is its war simulation there are games out there that will scratch that itch better than df. I, for one, hope that dwarf fortress continues in its current direction, and that war will have more economic and political requirements to trigger in the future, rather than the arbitrary nature that many players have come to expect of it. I suspect my opinion will be an unpopular one, but it is just an opinion. I don't imagine any of our opinions will have much impact on how dwarf fortress grows.
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 05:02:50 pm »

Far be it for me to tell anyone how to play, but I think that if the central feature of your dwarf fortress experience is its war simulation there are games out there that will scratch that itch better than df.

In fact, however, DF is quite unique. I prefer to play it with a focus on combat and warfare rather than namby-pamby politics, brick-laying or various forms of elf-coddling behaviour. To be frank, if that's your thing, there are other games out there that will scratch that itch better than df.
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"Whatever exists, having somehow come into being, is again and again reinterpreted to new ends, taken over, transformed, and redirected by some power superior to it; all events in the organic world are a subduing, a becoming master, and all subduing and becoming master involves a fresh interpretation, an adaptation through which any previous 'meaning' and 'purpose' are necessarily obscured or obliterated."

PatrikLundell

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 06:29:09 pm »

If you want a lot of goblin sieges, I'd recommend embarking close to a goblin settlement your dwarven civ is at war with, i.e. select a dwarven civ that's at war. I've had 1-2 sieges a year for almost 15 years, although for some reason it was a long time since the necros came by, so it's only goblins, and that has gotten old in that they send about the same number every time with no improvement in any aspect (numbers, equipment, creatures...).

One of the good things with DF is that you can play in widely different ways. If you don't want goblins, embark outside of their range. If you want war, embark close to goblin settlements, preferably at war with them, as well as close to towers.

As m-logik stated, kobolds still appear, although I've failed to get them in most embarks. In my second to last one I did get one 3 times (I think it was the same individual), but the 3:rd time I killed it in my kobold killing trap, and I then never say any kobold again.
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 06:33:15 pm »

I just reverted to 34.11.
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"Whatever exists, having somehow come into being, is again and again reinterpreted to new ends, taken over, transformed, and redirected by some power superior to it; all events in the organic world are a subduing, a becoming master, and all subduing and becoming master involves a fresh interpretation, an adaptation through which any previous 'meaning' and 'purpose' are necessarily obscured or obliterated."

gchristopher

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 05:55:17 pm »

The absence of goblin interactions is bad enough that I'd consider directing new players to 34.11, as well.

I understand the realism argument, but goblin ambushes are an essential gameplay experience. They form the baseline defense experience that offers an intermediate level of challenge. It's something harder than random wildlife but less complicated to manage than a siege or FB/titan attack. And the only ways to get a siege are to anger the humans or elves, or else embark near a necromancer. (And necromancers aren't a renewable resource, sadly.)

Without goblins, there's a real lack of an interesting opponent in 40.24, short of reanimating biomes, which are truly apocalyptic and require complex measures to reduce the undead levels before they destroy your FPS.

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utunnels

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 07:59:39 pm »

I've yet to see a goblin ambush in 40.xx.
The elves ambushed me once and I actually lost a soldier and some civs/pets to them.
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: No invasions?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 10:25:48 am »

You could also come up with any number of arguments based on "realism" that these regular assaults should happen. Eg, primitive goblin and kobold bands wander the wilderness and caves; any newly settled area tends to, by the same nature that made it thus, invite opportunists and predators, and so on.

Your proximity to enemy borders (and how "internal" you are to your own) should of course play a part, but in the case of goblins and kobolds a smaller one, such as the material type and quality of their armor and weapons, and a minor adjustment to their numbers.
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"Whatever exists, having somehow come into being, is again and again reinterpreted to new ends, taken over, transformed, and redirected by some power superior to it; all events in the organic world are a subduing, a becoming master, and all subduing and becoming master involves a fresh interpretation, an adaptation through which any previous 'meaning' and 'purpose' are necessarily obscured or obliterated."