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[slothen]

So the 1 tile ditch or stockade doesn't work anymore.  If I want to claim a bit of outside space in the early game, what's a reasonably safe way to do it?  Smoothed stone is out in my case.

Do I need like a 3-4 level tall block wall?  Do i need a 2 level block wall with an overhanging floor?  Do I absolutely need a ceiling over everything?

[PatrikLundell]

I go the courtyard route. That's the fastest way, and it also keeps flying pests like Keas in line (well, the tend to get into the cage traps).
Immediately on embark I start to build the courtyard around my entrance tunnel. The courtyard should be large enough to host my grazers, the initial trade depot, a QS refuse pile, and a few tiles of over ground crops a little later. This means at most 10 * 10. A 3 tile wide drawbridge is used to enter the courtyard, and I tend to build a guard dog single tile room with a grate floor over the drawbridge to detect sneakers. When that's built I extend the construction with a serpentine cage trap trapped trade path up to the bridge, deck that over, and extend it a few times, and close it off with another drawbridge and and another guard dog tower to which I move the dog.
A couple of years later I may start to reconstruct this to get myself an orchard beside the courtyard and the serpentine path (which by that time is no longer used for traders, since the trade depot has been moved to its own entrance with a lot longer path, so additional traps typically have been added), with the entrance to the orchard at the remote end of the path. When the orchard is finished (i.e. the high walls and the roof built) I plug the entrance to it and dismantle the wall separating it from the courtyard (making sure to have build a floor on top of the wall before it's removed).

[Eldin00]

I've had good luck with a block wall 3 tiles high (or 2 tiles high and surrounded by a 1-deep by 2+ wide ditch) with an overhang. My overhang is usually a wall with fortifications carved in it, though if I actually want to use the fortifications, it requires a roof over the walkway at the top of the wall, to keep marksdwarves from climbing over and then falling off in their lust for melee combat.

A full roof is usually a longterm goal, but even without a roof, that wall design has kept out every non-flying thing which has attacked me thus far (though I generally send the military out to kill the things that attack me. If I were to try to turtle, I might eventually get a few climbers finding their way over the walls)

[utunnels]

Has anyone tried a decent high wall plus fortifications?

I have an impression than enemies can't climb over fortifications.

[Uzu Bash]

I've used expanding walls; instead of building each level right on top of the other, build each further out. This does get more time/resource intensive the higher you go, but you can use each lower wall as a floor to access the higher, so no extra scaffolding is needed, and you can just add the fortifications strategically to use them for patrol routes or stations later.

You can't climb higher than the fortification, but you can climb up the side of it, and if there isn't a ceiling you can jump through it.

[PatrikLundell]

The problems with Eldin00's design, from my perspective, are:
- Building walls higher than one level is messy because of the micro management needed if no extra resources are spent, and the time and effort on scaffolding if the efforts are spent.
- Won't keep flying pests out.
- Traps inside the structure can be flown over even after a roof has been added.
+ A multi level courtyard can function as an orchard. Whether tree growth inside it is desired or not is a matter of player taste.

Having said that, I believe it should nevertheless work well for its purpose. It also has the advantage that later on you can build a roof with access from the inside without compromising the safety of the structure, since climbers cannot reach the unfinished roof, and thus not the stairs on the inside either.

I'd say the moat version should be faster to construct, but the building is probably performed during a fortress phase where miners have more urgent infrastructure to dig. Digging in soil is fast, however.

[MonkeyHead]

a wider ditch is much easier than a higher wall, and offers the same security.

[Uzu Bash]

A ditch just adds another zlvl downward, and on the surface that's unlikely to be a smoothable layer. And moats aren't easy at all to construct; the water (or magma) has to come from somewhere.

[BoredVirulence]

a wider ditch is much easier than a higher wall, and offers the same security.

Since its trivial to climb up the soil wall, definitely not. A deeper ditch is more secure, but its still easy.
I would do at least 2 z's of block walls. An accompanying ditch 2-3 z's down could help.

Honestly, it might be easier to channel down until you reach stone you can smooth. You could conceivably perform much of the work underground, then just channel out the ceiling to reveal a massive quarry like "moat."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Stage 0:
_____________
#############
#############
#############
#############
#############<-Stone layer begins
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Stage 1:
_____________
#         v##
#       v^###
#     v^#####
#   v^#######
|  ^######### <-Stone layer begins
#############

Stage 2:
_           v
#         v^#
#       v^###
#     v^#####
#   v^#######
|  ^######### <-Stone layer begins
#############

Legend:
Floor:        _
Rough wall:   #
Smooth wall:  |
Up ramp:      ^
Down ramp:    v


You only need 1 Z of smooth wall that can't be jumped past. In theory invaders could jump, catch themselves on a rough dirt wall, and climb without ever reaching the smooth wall, hence the width of the ditch increases as you get closer to the surface. Thats probably not an issue, it could probably be simplified to just 3 tiles wide for any arbitrary distance. Of course its worth mentioning that if its wider than 2 tiles, they should never attempt to jump removing the issue.

[PatrikLundell]

A ditch/moat with a wall with an overhang on top means smoothing is not needed. Water/magma is optional and can be added later if at all. A smoothed wall of a true moat probably doesn't do anything anyway, since a swimming climber probably will start to climb at the level above the water.
The purpose of the extra z level is to stop climbers from jumping up and climb on the overhang. If the extra level is filled with water you lose the jump protection level, but the belief is that critters can't jump out of the water anyway, so you'd end up with about the same protection.

Summary: A 2 level wall with overhang on top (3 levels in total) provides the same protection as a 1 level wall with an overhang on top and a moat or ditch underneath (wide enough to stop jumpers from jumping across to the overhang).

[Uzu Bash]

Digging down seems like extra effort that may stop climbers, but doesn't contribute anything to later developing it to defend against fliers. The thread may only be about defense against climbers, but it's not necessary to design defenses that will become obsolete.

[Niddhoger]

You guys keep assuming you fill a moat with liquid... psh.  YOU FILL MOATS WITH ZOMBIES IDJITS!

Seriously though, since not every embark has access to zombies... : (  you leave the moat dry.  As weird as it sounds, a dry moat is safer than a non-dry moat due to swimming invaders (trolls and goblins riding crocs).  As has been said, just dig your moat down into the first stone layer and make it a few tiles wide.  You can also put a few "dodge traps" along one-tile wide constructed floors to "encourage" goblins jumping into your moat.  I then usually put a single path up (on hte opposite side naturally) and then line that with traps.  You could also double your moat as a drowning trap, but you'll want an extended bridge to cover up the top of it for this.  Swimmers will still drown if there isn't an empty tile over the water. 

Also, from ancedotal evidence here on the forums, it -is- possible to make a wall so high a novice climber falls off from exhaustion.  This wall needs to be over 20z-levels though.  Some guy was digging an outdoor quarry and noticed a rash of injured miners.  They were climbing the 20+ level wall on one side of hte quarry instead of using the ramps on the other.  The unskilled minors would usually fall a couple times, but they were regularly getting out of the pit.  These weren't smoothed stone or even blocks, so maybe 5-10 of constructed blocks since they are harder to climb.  It also looks like a climber has to have a free hand to attempt climbing, so a goblin with a sword+shield should be unable to climb.

Also... why do people insist on leaving grazers on the surface? 10x10 is only what, 4 sheep with your trade depot and entrance stairs? Breach the caverns and immediatly seal them back up.  Now dig a giant underground room and let your cows and what not graze on cave moss from the security of your fort.  They can't tell the difference. 

That being said, I still make a courtyard, but it's mostly for aesthetics.  I also use bridges at first to make easy roofs.  Also, keep in mind that constructed fortifications lack a floor over them like carved fortifications do.  Thus, if you use fortifications but don't extend your ceiling over them, you are creating "gaps" for flyers.  Otherwise, hanging fortifications (built walls that are carved) with a ceiling over the courtyard will protect against flyers and climbers. 

[Bumber]

You guys keep assuming you fill a moat with liquid... psh.  YOU FILL MOATS WITH ZOMBIES IDJITS!

The zombies are climbing! AIIIEEEEE!

[Uzu Bash]

I originally had dug ditches and moats and found that to be wasted effort after I started building walls. The only ditches worth digging were the ones filled with water, and they were valuable enough to build my walls outside them.

It's very simple to begin expansible climber defense. When you build a wall, you're also building a floor. So get on that floor and build another wall along the outer rim of the bottom wall. Then you have a serviceable climber defense early on that can be built on later. If you're really ambitious, you can keep doing that for 5+ levels  before building a top over it all, completing your defense against fliers.

[Bumber]

Y'know, it should be simple enough to put traps all around the walls. It's not over-engineered, but it would work. Can't climb as well with injured limbs.