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[vjmdhzgr]

I realized looking at a future of the fortress question that exile is a potential punishment for crimes in Dwarf Fortress. Dwarves by default don't have either shun or exile, but I was wondering if they work when modded in, it seems like something Toady would add. There's also a few other tokens like the justified if whatever reason, the misguided, apalling and reprimand, the required, and unthinkable tokens are all not in dwarven ethics, or are only used in crimes that dwarves can't even commit. So before going through the difficult process of experimenting with this myself, I thought I should ask if anybody else has had experience with nonstandard punishment tokens, whether it was specifically tested or just played as a modded civilization that used them.

Results so far:
Changing the KILL_PLANT, KILL_ANIMAL, and KILL_NEUTRAL tokens to PUNISH_CAPITAL will not cause them to be recognized as crimes.

[Eldin00]

I don't know the answer to the question of what (if any) effect the SHUN or EXILE ethic values have in fortress mode, but I'm also interested in the answer to that question, and would be willing to assist in testing if it comes to that.

[Deon]

I have an assumption that most of ETHICS work only in Worldgen and are separated from the fort mode justice, however this page hints at a possibility that they are connected, so some tests would be nice: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Ethic

[vjmdhzgr]

Alright, so I'll make a plan for this and if anybody wants to help then they can. I believe the potential crimes a dwarf can commit in a fortress in vanilla are under the tokens: KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER, OATH_BREAKING, VANDALISM, and ASSAULT. Also worth investigating is whether the other KILL_SOMETHING tokens can be recognized as crimes in fortress mode. Assuming just those four however oath breaking is the easiest to reliably get to happen, as all the others are caused by tantrumming dwarves which are unreliable. The problem however is that oath breaking requires a noble to make mandates, which can take some time to get. However, even if it was sped up, we'd also need a justice system in place to properly observe the effects of the crimes, which would also take some time to set up. So it seems like each test is probably going to have to take a few in game years.

So the first thing needed is to investigate the other KILL_SOMETHING ethics tokens to see if they work in-game as ways to get dwarves to commit crimes. After that testing of these ethics tokens should be done: PERSONAL_MATTER, JUSTIFIED_IF_NO_REPURCUSSIONS, JUSTIFIED_IF_GOOD_REASON, JUSTIFIED_IF_EXTREME_REASON, JUSTIFIED_IF_SELF_DEFENSE, MISGUIDED, SHUN, APALLING, PUNISH_REPRIMAND, PUNISH_EXILE, UNTHINKABLE, and REQUIRED. The different justified ones and required will probably be the most difficult to fully test as it'll be difficult to tell what kind of situations might cause no repurcussions or might provide an extreme reason, and what would be seen as not doing something that's required.

[Dirst]

[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:REQUIRED] is going to be interesting.  It could be a self-contained loyalty cascade.

[Eldin00]

from looking at the Wiki, the only difference between REQUIRED and ACCEPTABLE appears to be if it is on one of the KILL_something ethics, in which case it forces all combat which would involve that ethic into no quarter mode. But I don't know if any testing has really been done to confirm that.

[Button]

PTW

[Eldin00]

If nobody else has done it yet, I'll start a fort this weekend with all of KILL_ANIMAL, KILL_ENEMY, KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER, and KILL_NEUTRAL at PUNISH_CAPITAL, to try and check whether or not each of those results in a visit from the hammerer.

[BoredVirulence]

If nobody else has done it yet, I'll start a fort this weekend with all of KILL_ANIMAL, KILL_ENEMY, KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER, and KILL_NEUTRAL at PUNISH_CAPITAL, to try and check whether or not each of those results in a visit from the hammerer.

If your testing in fortress mode, you should be able to just modify the ethics in the save's raw folder, and get the same results. Or use it to test other, more interesting, values, such as shun and exile. Or use a preexisting fort.

[Eldin00]

Has modifying the ethics in an existing save been confirmed to work? I know that changes to entities are one of the things that almost always requires generating a new world to take effect.

[AceSV]

I've got a civilization of rabbit people in Furry Fortress that exile for killing animals, but I've killed dozens of animals by hunting, butchering or squad orders and they don't hesitate to do it, nor does anyone get exiled for doing it.  (although my caravans get annoyed if I try to trade them animal products) 

HOWEVER, I've never played a rabbit people fortress long enough to build a functioning justice system. 

[BoredVirulence]

Has modifying the ethics in an existing save been confirmed to work? I know that changes to entities are one of the things that almost always requires generating a new world to take effect.

My understanding is that changes that need to be made for world gen require a new world. Changes that can be loaded at will work. But I suppose this could go both ways. Certainly any effect it would have on world gen would require a new world, but we may be able to get changes into fortress mode without it. At least, we can try. Changing oath breaking to capital punishment to an existing fortress would be a quick way to test it.

[vjmdhzgr]

Has modifying the ethics in an existing save been confirmed to work? I know that changes to entities are one of the things that almost always requires generating a new world to take effect.

It's been confirmed that changing any entity tokens in an existing save doesn't work, as the entity tokens are only used when civilizations are generated, and no new civilizations are ever generated so changing the entity tokens does nothing. I believe every other type of token can be modified in a save, though it's not guaranteed it won't cause crashes.

If nobody else has done it yet, I'll start a fort this weekend with all of KILL_ANIMAL, KILL_ENEMY, KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER, and KILL_NEUTRAL at PUNISH_CAPITAL, to try and check whether or not each of those results in a visit from the hammerer.

Sounds good, I was going to do that, but I'm perfectly fine with doing less work.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

I really want to see what happens if KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER is REQUIRED.

[Emperor]

I really want to see what happens if KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER is REQUIRED.

The REQUIRED token forces combatants into "no quarter" mode, which means that neither side of the conflict can surrender - it's basically a fight to death. KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:REQUIRED will make fistfights and brawls, which usually result in a broken bone or two, end instead with death of one of the fighters.