Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently  (Read 39126 times)

Mishrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2015, 04:10:05 pm »

I am in your debt!  I was always thoroughly confused by this and now I really look forward to giving this a try.  Thank you for the science.
Logged

Devin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2015, 04:27:21 pm »

What about the problem of dwarves getting unhappy about being drafted for too long?  Should we insert some scheduled off-duty time, and if so how much?

That was a bug which has been fixed in the current version. Training orders no longer count as 'active duty' for calculating whether dwarves were on duty long enough to create bad thoughts.

Thank you!  That's extremely useful to know.  What about dwarves who are on duty?  How much rest do they need if I have them patrolling or whatever?
Logged

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2015, 05:02:10 pm »

What about the problem of dwarves getting unhappy about being drafted for too long?  Should we insert some scheduled off-duty time, and if so how much?

That was a bug which has been fixed in the current version. Training orders no longer count as 'active duty' for calculating whether dwarves were on duty long enough to create bad thoughts.

Thank you!  That's extremely useful to know.  What about dwarves who are on duty?  How much rest do they need if I have them patrolling or whatever?

THey won't get bad patrol thoughts if they're lords (Elite Marksdwarves). If you want them to patrol, they have to be stood down for as long as they were active if I remember the logic correctly; I'm not 100% this bug is completely squished. They won't get the patrol duty thought though if they're just training.
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2015, 01:32:03 pm »

This is from IRC, and comfirmed by me in a save posted by another user that they will not shoot across a gap anymore at a target. This appears to be a change in 2014. If you want to use this for bolt splitting, it will not work.
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

TheFlame52

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master of the randomly generated
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2015, 01:47:05 pm »

I finally got around to fixing this.

GLORIOUS

I think I'm going to have to train a third weaponsmith to keep up with the demand!

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2015, 02:28:36 pm »

I finally got around to fixing this.

GLORIOUS

I think I'm going to have to train a third weaponsmith to keep up with the demand!

It really puts it in perspective when you watch every bolt in your fortress vanish. Incidentally, if you get lucky with a fleshy FB or titan, bone bolts work wonders at supply problems. Bone only makes stacks of five, but your dwarves will load multiples in their quiver (up to 20 bolts total).



Now that I've had this running for long enough, I've noticed the following quirks
 - The higher the archer skill, the more frequently they archery train

Here's all ten of them going at once:



 - Ammo is *by far* the biggest blocker; two weaponsmiths, and three bone carvers BARELY can meet demand, and I still have marksdwarves lagging on the reload. My metalsmithing industry lacks magma or coal, so I have an addition SIX wood burners going flat out to run all my forges.

I've noticed that when they go "No Orders", they almost universally lack bolts. I'm starting to suspect archery practice may be higher priority, but the problem is they try and do that, have no bolts, get stuck, then wake up and reload. I almost always see Archery Practice following a Pickup Equipment. I think adding another weaponsmith or two/three bone carvers is going to be needed.

I've never had ammo problems like this, even when livetraining. I know bolt for bolt, live training is more effective, but I've had plenty of problems with them not reloading either with live training, which makes me suspect the entire issue with marksdwarves not properly training is them not reliably reloading, and after six months in game, I have some starting from scratch about to hit elite marksdwarves. If I had kept up with demand, I bet would be faster.

I've also devised a method to separate out the steel bolts (or any specific material) for when you want them for maximize lethality once your badasses hit badass status. All you have to do is have a bookkeeper, and just mass forbid steel bolts. When you want them to change over, forbid all the other bolt types, unforbid steel. They'll dump their quivers, and reload with steel. Reverse the process to get them shooting garbage bolts again. I notice they *always* take pickup equipment if they've gotten their bolts forbidden reliably.

EDIT: Here's how to get the changeover to work reliably, assuming you have forbidden bolts already.
1. Issue a station for the marksdwarves squad somewhere in your fortress away from enemies. This gets them to stop training, but also causes some issues with reloading (they don't always take Pickup Equipment if stationed).
2. Use the stocks screen to change the forbid settings. They'll dump the bolts where they stand (stationing in an ammo stockpile solves two problems at once)
3. Cancel the station, wait a moment, then issue it again; they'll immediately go reload
4. Once they're reloaded, send them where they need to go.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:35:56 pm by NCommander »
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

Mishrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2015, 02:36:02 pm »

Would it make sense to have some wood bolts being produced as well as all the metal/bone and then designing the archery targets to have channels around them (but still leaving a path) to scoop as many bolts as possible from the archery range?
Logged

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2015, 02:40:09 pm »

Would it make sense to have some wood bolts being produced as well as all the metal/bone and then designing the archery targets to have channels around them (but still leaving a path) to scoop as many bolts as possible from the archery range?

Doesn't work anymore unfortunately. If they don't have a straight line of passable tiles on the same Z level, they will not practice. I spent a good hour last night experimenting with this with a user in #dwarffortress. They'll shoot right over a retractable bridge, but the moment you retract it, they'll all go to no orders. Even if you did do this, they'd spend a lot more time reloading bolt [1] 20 times.

EDIT: Just reread; I did find if you have channels behind, they sometimes drop, but maybe 1 in 100. Too much effort IMHO.
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

Mishrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2015, 02:41:55 pm »

So a channel behind and to the sides of it wouldn't scoop missfired bolts?    Fair enough ~
Logged

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2015, 04:29:09 pm »

I'm going to confirm that the reason they go no orders is *not* because they try and do individual weapon skills, but because they have no bolts and it takes awhile for notice and for them to reload. I'm going to experiment to see if I can get them reloading more regularly ...
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

TheFlame52

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master of the randomly generated
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2015, 04:41:26 pm »

And on top of making my dwarves all train, they sucked up the last of the old bolts laying around where there used to be a stockpile. Thanks, man.

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2015, 04:57:15 pm »

And on top of making my dwarves all train, they sucked up the last of the old bolts laying around where there used to be a stockpile. Thanks, man.

Its rather fun watching them empty out stockpiles. I think I know how to fix the reloading issue. Its bloody convoluted but it should work, and once set, it will prevent them from getting stuck.

EDIT: So I can double confirm that its them be buggy on reload that causes "No Orders", I stood down my squad, let the ammo counts recover, then activated them. Everyone in the squad went, reloaded, and all immediately went for Archery Practice.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 05:02:12 pm by NCommander »
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

RoaryStar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Skilled Programmer
    • View Profile
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2015, 05:05:45 pm »

I've noticed that when they go "No Orders", they almost universally lack bolts. I'm starting to suspect archery practice may be higher priority, but the problem is they try and do that, have no bolts, get stuck, then wake up and reload. I almost always see Archery Practice following a Pickup Equipment. I think adding another weaponsmith or two/three bone carvers is going to be needed.

There's no problem with your order theory.

- Squad training
 - Individual Combat Drill
 - Spar
 - Archery Training (if equipped with a bow).

The top three only occur in standard barracks; not in archery ranges. Because you don't have a standard barracks, the only thing left for them to do, since they're on duty, is archery training.
Logged

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2015, 05:34:40 pm »

EUERKA!

I think I found a workaround to make this work. This abuses a quirk on how orders work:

Here's what you got to do:
 * For each train order, assign it a squad position, one train order for each squad position
 * Add a station order in addition to the ten train orders, minimium of one, NO position assigned, for a total of 11 orders.

Here's what appears to happen. Dwarf sees they have a train order for their position, they'll go train. When they run out of bolts, they go "Oh, no one is patrolling, oh I need bolts", and go and pick them up. After Pickup Equipment finishes, they look at their orders, see their preference for their position is to train, ignoring the station order. Rince, lather, repeat.

They still occasionally go No Orders, but it appears now to only happen if they legitimately can't reload their quivers.

The orders screen needs to look like this.




Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

NCommander

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Military Master
    • View Profile
    • SoylentNews
Re: Ulitmate Marksdwarf Guide - Get Them Training Much More Frequently
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2015, 06:24:30 pm »

So the entire problem with this is that they won't take archery practice if they're out of bolts, but they reload really eradically. I've now watched my now elite marksdwarves for close to a year, and what happens is if they all have reloaded for some reason (usually going on/off duty does it), they all immediately take archery practice, empty their quivers, and then get stuck until urist mcidiots realizes there are no bolts left. I'm trying to figure out what flag in memory causes the game to wake up and cause them to reload.
Logged
Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5