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[AdranGarrison]

So, over the past 5 or so years, I've played a lot of roguelikes (starting with Nethack, which eventually led me to Dwarf Fortress, along with a host of other games), and I've found myself at a bit of a conundrum: I find the combat/wounding system in Dwarf Fortress absolutely wonderful. I wish more roguelikes used a similar system and expanded upon it, as I think there is tons of unexplored territory. That said, Adventure Mode lacks a defined goal or any kind of real difficulty curve, and (in my opinion, at least) gets boring after awhile. I think a more traditional roguelike in the combat/wounding style of Dwarf Fortress but having more structure, both narrative and character-progressive, would make an amazing game.

I've already started programming something along these lines myself (and will continue to do so, as I'm having an awful lot of fun doing it even if it ends up just being for me!), but I'm really curious if anybody else feels the same way. Are there any games out there that I might not be aware of which do this already?

[Salmeuk]

While I agree completely, I can't say there are too many games with Dwarf Fortresses attention to detail.

Have you played I.V.A.N.? You can do crazy things like turn your legs into steel, or your arms into the hair of the mythical Ommel. Even something as basic as a lightning wand can kill you accidentally via reflection off a stone wall, or a wand of fireballs breaking and exploding in your inventory. Sadly, it was never fully developed and while it certainly has more 'goal' than DF it's a very wonky, imbalanced game to win.

http://ivan.sourceforge.net/

[AdranGarrison]

I'd never heard of I.V.A.N., but it looks interesting from what I can gather from the pictures (wiki seems to be down and/or nonexistent and documentation is sparse). It looks something of a hybrid between what I'm looking for/working on and a more straightforward roguelike (I see, for example, hp and AC, and it seems that your body structure is default humanoid... can it do others well? If you grow an extra arm or head do your equipment slots change to match? Do material types influence damage in a fairly realistic way?). It's a shame it doesn't seem to have been worked on for the last decade or so. Still, thanks for pointing me to it, and I may check it out when next I have some time

[sambojin]

The closest I can think of is Unreal World.
It's not nearly to the level of DF, but things are still horrifyingly deadly.

bay12 thread here:
www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=123138.0

From a coding point of view, it's a lot easier to go with layers. Bits (fairly big ones. Arms, legs, heads, torso) and layers comprised of those bits.

From inside out: Skeleton, muscle, skin, armour layer 1, armour layer 2. How hard are they to cut, hammer, burn, good magic, bad magic.

Bits: # of heads, # of arms, # of legs, # of torso bits. Bigness modifier for each. Harder-than-basic-stuff-it's-made-of modifier for each.

You can still chop bits off, randomize (and keep) their appearance to the player (foot, lower leg, full leg. Does it really matter?) while lowering combat abilities by that amount. Can do deepness of chops or how hard it is to bust armour by these amounts. Or magic their very bones or skin to death (or life) from them. Big negatives and bleedouts for full leg chopped off, but still pretty damn substantial ones for a busted foot. But if it's got 30 legs, not so much. Randomize the bejeesus out of descriptions and bits left over. Memory overhead isn't a bad thing if graphical overhead is kept light.

But take a step back. Breathe deeply. In... Out.... No one needs more than 5 layers of a creature's bits. Or more than 10 part types per creature. Or more than 5 weapon thingos. Plus about 3-5 types of stats for each. And some skills. And maybe a few modifiers for each one of these things. No one. Never. Ever......

I wonder what the weather's doing today? Will that make it colder near the forge? And where will the water go?

No one really needs this.

Except DF. But it's got so many things that not even Toady can balance them easily.

Just completely and arbitrarily reduce them to "useful" stats. It's alot easier than pseudo-realism. Tends to make for funner games. Quicker to code at least.

Abstraction is good. Set your detail level and don't move off it. Then you can actually make what you want.