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Author Topic: $9 computer...  (Read 3292 times)

SirQuiamus

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2015, 08:32:29 am »

If they're getting these premade from China, what is the Kickstarter for? "Buy this Chinese product that already exists"?

Kinda sounds that way.  A lot of Kickstarters are basically just advertizing programs that generate money instead of costing it.

The SoC and associated components may already exist, but the assembled PCB is apparently a new product.

That said, there are already lots and lots of usb-dongle-sized computers available from Chinese manufacturers, so most of the novelty is actually in the price and the advertised opensourcyness.
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mainiac

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 11:58:29 am »

If they're getting these premade from China, what is the Kickstarter for? "Buy this Chinese product that already exists"?

"Pay us to order assembly of parts in a way they wouldn't be assembled otherwise and flash install an operating system we customized to them."

I mean it's basically what you pay for when you shell out a few hundred bucks for a smartphone.

This is where I see it shining. I don't think a $9 computer will find a market in the developed world, but in Africa or something, it could be incredibly useful.

The developed world bought a million Arduinos and the C.H.I.P. already has four times as many pre-orders 6 months out as the Arduino sold in it's first year.

The developed world is going to have use for it because it allows you to have a dedicated computer for a task at basically no cost.  For instance my girlfriend recently made an interactive art exhibit that required having a desktop computer running very simple software 12 hours a day.  To run this, she had to find a desktop she could borrow for several months.  If C.H.I.P. had been available she could have just bought one of those.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 12:03:20 pm by mainiac »
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wierd

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 12:52:26 pm »

It's a fascinating little thing, to be sure.

However, the lack of (modern) video hardware on the main system (seriously, why not vga instead of composite video? It cant really have been cost; you still need memory for a frame buffer, still need a clock generator circuit, still need a DAC, etc. does the vga port itself really cost so much?) makes this less attractive than the beaglebone black, which has similar GPIO shield expansion capabilities.

It has a very attractive price point, but you blow the GPIO interface to get a vga or hdmi video signal, because the sheild lacks passthrough.  I think BBB is the better offer, even if higher priced.

Now, if they included a mini dimm interface on the back side of the unit, it would make up for the above shortcomings. Much of the headache with these very tiny PCs is the inability to add more ram, in the face of software designed for desktops with multiple gigabytes of the stuff installed. (and in some cases, the heavy memory requirements of some runtime environments. --I'm looking at YOU, Java!) One can sorta squeeze some extra out of these little systems by compiling with zcache and zram turned on in the kernel, but then the CPU is buried under zlib compression/decompression cycles all the damn time (which can make these little ARM SoCs misbehave terribly!)

(run into these problems getting openwrt running routers to do neat things, since processor and ram wise, they are getting about on par with offerings like this mini PC. The SoC is just not meant to do hard crunching like that.)

I will give it some time; it certainly is a neat little project board, and it certainly has potential, but it's lacking in ways that most other offers are also lacking, and thus is not leading, IMO.

The biggest request from, eg, the rPi community is access to the memory bus.  This device has the same problem, because the SoC makers embed the memory into the cpu, and then dont expose the interface anywhere. that means that you cant hang things directly on the memory bus, like dimms or custom roms, or specialized DMA ICs.

This is not a new request, and has been there since the rPi and pals came out. Such devices could be much more useful to hobbyists if that interface was exposed. it just costs the SoC maker a few more cents per unit to expose the leads on the package, so they wont do it, and since the SoC maker wont do it, the small computer maker CANT do that.

If these guys are working with allwinner as closely as they say, then maybe if they sell enough units, they can make a deal for a special version of the IC that DOES expose the memory bus-- but I wont hold my breath.

But seriously, exposed memory bus == killer feature when it comes to these things this point in the game.

(some of the things you could put on if the memory bus was exposed:  Custom secondary support CPUs(special encoders/decoders), disk controller sheilds that are actually fast and dont need the host CPU (like genuine sata controller sheilds), additional RAM, whole CPU upgrades (turn into SMP system with shared memory architecture), community derived REAL expansion bus designs,  etc. It would be a HUGE thing! But SoC makers are fixated on thier primary markets of phones, tablets, and limited embedded devices, and dont want to provide that functionality, because to them it would be a cost without benefit-- chips with exposed leads that dont get connected with anything on those embedded devices. Just wasted fab process and solder in thier eyes. To makers though, it would be a killer app feature on a mini pc.)

I'm hopeful for CHIP, but it doesnt bring much other than FOSS FRIENDLY and PRICE (Per base unit) to the table.



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a1s

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 01:55:34 pm »

But seriously, exposed memory bus == killer feature when it comes to these things this point in the game.
<lots of snip>
It sounds like you want to actually solder stuff onto the board there. I don't think that many people are eager to follow your footsteps (I'm not, which of course proves nothing). If there were, I expect we'd already have a BeageBonePINStm that has that feature and costs the extra $20. Or at least there should be in any capitalist society worth it's salt.
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a1s

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2015, 05:14:02 pm »

I'd say $9 is only there to entice people, and really they expect to be making $19 a set.
Oh, and there's a $20 shipping charge.
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wierd

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2015, 06:49:55 pm »

But seriously, exposed memory bus == killer feature when it comes to these things this point in the game.
<lots of snip>
It sounds like you want to actually solder stuff onto the board there. I don't think that many people are eager to follow your footsteps (I'm not, which of course proves nothing). If there were, I expect we'd already have a BeageBonePINStm that has that feature and costs the extra $20. Or at least there should be in any capitalist society worth it's salt.

You just need another 2 header strips that shields can stack on that have the memory bus address lines hooked to them. The rest would be getting shields that use them. (mini dimm shield, sata adapter shield, mini pci shield, etc.)

The challenge is getting SoC makers to just expose the lines outside of the package.
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nenjin

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2015, 07:43:10 pm »

I notice their "app list" is made almost entirely of free ware stuff like Pidgin, VLC, GIMP, Libreoffice, etc...

Have they worked with these guys at all, or are all their licenses allowing for it? Cause this thing is already taking off at over $1,000,000....

I know I should be excited by this, and I probably would be, if I was more of a tinkerer. I suppose I'd be more impressed as a consumer if this had been a little more contemporary with smart phones. But for developing nations, schools, hackers, tinkerers and gadget makers, this is pretty cool. Although I really question how much serious work they think people will get done with 512mb of memory. I'll be interested to hear how this thing handles practical stuff over longer periods of time. Sure it can play a DOS emulation and you can make a finger doodle in GIMP, browse the web. Can you actually draw an entire house in CAD without crashing it?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 08:20:06 pm by nenjin »
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Bauglir

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2015, 07:45:17 pm »

Who knows! I gave them a bit over a hundred of my dollars, though, so we'll see how this turns out.
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Tellemurius

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2015, 08:14:06 pm »

Quote
...both C.H.I.P. and PocketC.H.I.P. are both TOTALLY OPEN SOURCE. This means all hardware design files schematic, PCB layout and bill of materials are free for you the community to download, modify and use.

Quote
We've worked very closely with the amazing team at Allwinner Technology to insure that all the necessary documentation and source code for the System on Chip and Power Management Chips used in C.H.I.P. will be available for the community to use and learn from.

Given that their computer is based on proprietary technology, making all the hardware and firmware open-source must have taken a whole lot of work (and money). Allwinner is really listed as an ARM licensee, so I guess they've managed to strike up a contract that makes it possible, but it's anyone's guess how much they had to pay for it. The RPi Foundation never managed to make their device completely open-source, so it's definitely a big step forward for FOSS fanatics if the makers of CHIP have got it worked out. 
As much as people want to complain about FOSS I see no point unless you engineer firmware for a living. The only thing that wasn't open source on the RPi was the encoders on the graphics core but thats not their fault or Broadcom. A licensed HDMI port cost alot in royalties for any company that wants to stick it to the back of their board.

wierd

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Re: $9 computer...
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2015, 08:19:26 pm »

I notice their "app list" is made almost entirely of free ware stuff like Pidgin, VLC, GIMP, Libreoffice, etc...

Have they worked with these guys at all, or are all their licenses allowing for it? Cause this thing is already taking off at over $1,000,000....

I know I should be excited by this, and I probably would be, if I was more of a tinkerer. I suppose I'd be more impressed by a consumer if this had been a little more contemporary with smart phones. But for developing nations, schools, hackers, tinkerers and gadget makers, this is pretty cool. Although I really question how much serious work they think people will get done with 512mb of memory. I'll be interested to hear how this thing handles practical stuff over longer periods of time. Sure it can play a DOS emulation and you can make a finger doodle in GIMP, browse the web. Can you actually draw an entire house in CAD without crashing it?

That stuff is all FOSS, under GPL, so yes, it's allowed as long as the source tree is available, and since it is based from debian, i expect it's a straight clone of the debian sources for nearly all packages.

Given that this is an ARM SoC, your choices are rather limited on that front. I suppose that if this SoC has ARMv7 arch with NEON and full floating point, one could shell out some dough for buyware exagear desktop, then run i386 WINE using it, and get some limited windows application support, but I havent looked into that too closely. I know a user in the community games forums loaded DF on an open pandora using exagear desktop, and it "runs."

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