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[Ribs]

No, I don't mean a drinking academy (although that would actually make perfect sense in this game). I mean a regular academy, that would work similarly to the way taverns are going to work.  Yes, academies/universities/schools have been suggested many times before. Here are a few threads on the subject:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=123620.msg4080960#msg4080960
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4326.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25775.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62643.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5528.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=40464.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3613.msg54340#msg54340
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=24445.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=29367.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82065.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=29324.0

Nevertheless, my ideas here are more specific to recent developments in the game, so I think it's worth suggesting.

So, Toady says that we'll soon (not on this release, but probably sooner rather than later) have some sort of economy to support the idea of making a profit out of having a funtioning tavern visited by outsiders in our fortresses.

Seeing that we'll also have libraries and scholars visiting, why not make available to the player an academy type building that would function in a similar way:

• Rooms/dorms for students,
• some sort of classroom,
• a library,

all attached together like taverns and temples will be. Students would pay some sort of fee to attend the college. Perhaps, (just like taverns will apparently work out), you could make academies just for locals that would be free. That could obviously be a lot more to them, but that's my basic idea.

Not an out of place idea to the medieval-y spirit of the game, as historically (usually wealthy or highly influential) families would send their relatives to places of learning that worked kind of like this.

I partcularly like the idea of academies that would train certain skills that are very difficult to train right now, like architecture, medical skills, reading and engeneering skills (all theoretical enough that it would make sense for them to be taught like this)

[NW_Kohaku]

When it comes to Toady, "sooner" is a veeeery relative term.  And that only applies if he doesn't go chasing after some shiny other idea that gets his attention first, like when he decided to put the caravan arc on hold last time to make human cities for a couple years.  (Not that human cities are a bad thing by any measure, but I remember taverns were 'coming soon' in 2011...)

Anyway, I think such ideas make a bit more sense as part of a "guild" of one sort or another.   (I.E. a mason's guild teaching architecture.)  I'm a little leery about books just instantly making people learn things through book-based knowledge beams to the brain, but having some sort of hands-on training makes a decent bit of sense, and you can basically do that in-game already.  (Just construct a bridge, deconstruct it, then construct it again...) What you'd really need is a military screen-style interface for the designation of, and in-game recognition of a place of learning so that would-be architects could come visit your ditch where you build bridges.

That said, there's no reason for you not to revive an existing topic when you want to add something to it.  What you've written here could easily be used to expand upon one of those threads you already linked.

[Alfrodo]

When it comes to Toady, "sooner" is a veeeery relative term.  And that only applies if he doesn't go chasing after some shiny other idea that gets his attention first, like when he decided to put the caravan arc on hold last time to make human cities for a couple years.  (Not that human cities are a bad thing by any measure, but I remember taverns were 'coming soon' in 2011...)

Anyway, I think such ideas make a bit more sense as part of a "guild" of one sort or another.   (I.E. a mason's guild teaching architecture.)  I'm a little leery about books just instantly making people learn things through book-based knowledge beams to the brain, but having some sort of hands-on training makes a decent bit of sense, and you can basically do that in-game already.  (Just construct a bridge, deconstruct it, then construct it again...) What you'd really need is a military screen-style interface for the designation of, and in-game recognition of a place of learning so that would-be architects could come visit your ditch where you build bridges.

That said, there's no reason for you not to revive an existing topic when you want to add something to it.  What you've written here could easily be used to expand upon one of those threads you already linked.

I don't think it'll be: oh, it's "And She Sang, Urist lambemòng" a book on a legendary mason. I think I'll read it
*reads it
Skill in masonry has increased to Competent
*immediately gains 10 pounds in muscle*


I think it'll be either,
A) no skill gains from books
B) skill gains from books come in the form of being able to make new things with innovations or stuff. (read Quern, Fact or Fiction, learn to make quern.)
C) Skill gains would be percent based, so a mason with no experience cannot learn from a book. But a competent one will get a slightly better boost than an expert one.
D) Skill gains would be too marginal to be noteworthy, regular training is better.
E) Books make it possible/much easier to start a profession. Not all dwarves will start off knowing how to forge a blade, carve a rock, or make a crossbow out of a chicken.

I like this though, I was thinking about this earlier and how amusing it would be to come across a lye making guild in adventure mode.

So you put the apple ashes in the water... Boil 'em, and skim the lye off the top. Then boil it again...
done.
That's it.
You're done, you're a certified lye maker.
get out.
It's my first day!
*Urist Mcmaster grabs Logem lomlom by the right foot!
*Urist Mcmaster throws Logem lomlom
*Logem lomlom collides with an obstacle (The door)

I'd also like to see the personality of the master/founder affect academy policies.

example: More paranoid, independent and less power hungry, and cooperative founders will have fewer students and stricter signup policies. (I'm afraid one will kill me, I don't need them, I don't need to exert power over them, I hate working with large groups.)

ones that value craftsmanship, eloquence and decorum will have larger, better furnished guild buildings (worldgen only. You decide this one yourself in your own academies.) and keep their students for longer. (You can't leave until you're a legendary +5 kicker, dang it!)

Ones that dislike hard work, tradition and like leisure time and merrymaking will have more non-teaching things on campus. (World gen again)

Ones that dislike law and loyalty are likely to build... secret rooms and armories. (again, worldgen.)

I also can't help but think that some might get the money to build their academy through adventuring and raiding.

In a conversation with a headmaster:
Where did you get the money to start the academy?
I stole a bunch of weapons from a goblin pit, turns out most weapons go for 250 apiece, and dimension lumber for 5.
Also, socks, they go for about 30 apiece. So once you've acquired about 30 pairs of socks and 30 copper axes...

Wait, so this place is indirectly made from stolen axes, and used socks?

Yep.

I must leave.

[Ribs]

That said, there's no reason for you not to revive an existing topic when you want to add something to it.  What you've written here could easily be used to expand upon one of those threads you already linked.

Not getting any attention? Kind of petty, but honestly I have no other excuse. Also, no one's made the effort of making a 'central' dedicated thread on the subject (like your improved farming megathread), so that also discourages necroing old ones even for people who bother researching on the forums before starting new threads (like I did). Mine's probably going to be added to the pile so maybe this really was redundant, but I'll try to keep this one alive if people are interested.


About the books giving people skills,

I think it only makes sense for certain skills that are very theorethical. Mathematics is the perfect example, linguistics as well. There's very little "hands on" learning with these subjects, and considering how df is developing things like math could become game skills in the future, and you'd need those to be able to have a higher understanding of engeneering. Sure, there are other ways of learning, but books are a functioning alternative.

As for other skills, yeah. It's more complicated. There are historical examples of manuals for all sort of things, but I think books would be more useful to teach specific techniques rather than directly improve combat related skills, or more practical skills like carpentry or masonry.

Still, there are other things that academies could teach that aren't specific skill related. You could have your scholars reading about poetry, philosophy, political theory, military theory, etc. Just like your adventuresrs are able to learn songs, I'm sure that there could be a tab that shows the familiarity a character has with all assortments of subjects. Slaves to Armok 1 has all sort of crazy redundant skills, so I'm sure DF'll get to the point where Toady will decide to split practical knowledge from theoretical/book knowledge.

[Ribs]

I don't think it'll be: oh, it's "And She Sang, Urist lambemòng" a book on a legendary mason. I think I'll read it
*reads it
Skill in masonry has increased to Competent
*immediately gains 10 pounds in muscle*


I think it'll be either,
A) no skill gains from books
B) skill gains from books come in the form of being able to make new things with innovations or stuff. (read Quern, Fact or Fiction, learn to make quern.)
C) Skill gains would be percent based, so a mason with no experience cannot learn from a book. But a competent one will get a slightly better boost than an expert one.
D) Skill gains would be too marginal to be noteworthy, regular training is better.
E) Books make it possible/much easier to start a profession. Not all dwarves will start off knowing how to forge a blade, carve a rock, or make a crossbow out of a chicken.

I like this though, I was thinking about this earlier and how amusing it would be to come across a lye making guild in adventure mode.

So you put the apple ashes in the water... Boil 'em, and skim the lye off the top. Then boil it again...
done.
That's it.
You're done, you're a certified lye maker.
get out.
It's my first day!
*Urist Mcmaster grabs Logem lomlom by the right foot!
*Urist Mcmaster throws Logem lomlom
*Logem lomlom collides with an obstacle (The door)

I'd also like to see the personality of the master/founder affect academy policies.

example: More paranoid, independent and less power hungry, and cooperative founders will have fewer students and stricter signup policies. (I'm afraid one will kill me, I don't need them, I don't need to exert power over them, I hate working with large groups.)

ones that value craftsmanship, eloquence and decorum will have larger, better furnished guild buildings (worldgen only. You decide this one yourself in your own academies.) and keep their students for longer. (You can't leave until you're a legendary +5 kicker, dang it!)

Ones that dislike hard work, tradition and like leisure time and merrymaking will have more non-teaching things on campus. (World gen again)

Ones that dislike law and loyalty are likely to build... secret rooms and armories. (again, worldgen.)

I also can't help but think that some might get the money to build their academy through adventuring and raiding.

In a conversation with a headmaster:
Where did you get the money to start the academy?
I stole a bunch of weapons from a goblin pit, turns out most weapons go for 250 apiece, and dimension lumber for 5.
Also, socks, they go for about 30 apiece. So once you've acquired about 30 pairs of socks and 30 copper axes...

Wait, so this place is indirectly made from stolen axes, and used socks?

Yep.

I must leave.

Let me give you a scenario:

You have three people of equal physical standing that have zero experience with capentry. They are each assigned a carpentry workshop and asked to construct a table.

Person A recieves the help of an experieced carpenter who tutors him in every step of the process
Person B recieves an exellent carpentry manual that explains, step by step, almost exactly what the tutor would to person A
Person C recieves no help

I think person A will probably produce a much better quality table than person B who, in turn, will produce a better quality table than person C. Moreover, if the process is repeated everyday for several years, person B and especially person A would end up producing far better quality tables than person C probably ever would.

The thing is, there's practical knolwege and theorectical knolwedge for all skills. You can't simply learn thousands of years of accumulated carpentry techniques passed on by generations by yourself in one lifetime. Toady has spoken before of limiting the dwarves ability to quickly going from dabbling to masters in a set of skills without being tutored by someone with more knolwedge.

While being directly instructed in a student-teacher relationship (that we may see when guilds are brought back) is probably the most effective way of passing knowledge, books are a realistic alternative.

Lets say you generated a world where all dwarven civilizations died out and you don't have access to certain skills. The only alternative of training them effectively may be through books.

So a mason with no experience could, in fact, learn from a book. I think that it would indeed make sense to give book users a small percentage skill gain in whatever it is that they are trying to learn in some cases, but the real big advantages of books would be to serve as a 'makeshift' tutor for certain skills. They should be much inferior to actual teachers, but they could be useful in a pinch. 

About the funders personality influencing on the way the academies will work, I think that's very valid. It would be cool to see what kind of weirdo historical figures would be the ones starting these things in world gen especially

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I'm not sure that a book alone actually helps at all, is the problem.

I mean, I have a Probability textbook from college with me that I guarantee you would be illegible to over 99.9% of the English-literate population.  It takes a very intimate understanding of high-level mathematics to even approach the book, and notably over half the class of very intelligent people failed that course, and not for too much partying.  Without the pressure of a failing grade looming over your head and constant trips to the TAs to learn this stuff, there would be no learning it at all, as almost nobody has the will to push through a nearly illegible tome to master what is in it on their own time.

You don't learn some things by just reading about them, you have to do them.  There's a reason the bulk of a math textbook is made up of the problems you have to do, because the lessons are meaningless gibberish until you actually solve problems with them enough time that they get engraved on your brain.  My 2nd grade math class mostly consisted of handing us sheet after sheet of basic math problems, and timing how long it took each of us to fill them out.

Technology is advanced on the factory floor, as they say.  (Which is a large part of why I hate standard video game tech trees...) 

I mean, there are some arts that really are just plain dead.  Nobody knows how to make Greek Fire, for example, because it was a secret that was kept secret by never writing it down. 

People have forgotten how Medieval martial arts were performed, even with detailed textbooks, and historians and reenactors argue over many details, especially when it takes a long period of actual hands-on reenactment to even get a grip of what the books were even talking about.  Reenactors are basically just reinventing the whole field through use.

[Alfrodo]

That's the main limitation on books.

That's what I thought of with C)

Basically, if you don't understand armorsmithing, you won't understand a book about it.

I guess different books could have different purposes.

(B + C)
So a the book: "Stop Signs: Fact or Fiction" could be a weaponsmithing book on how to make the legendary stop sign.  It would be incomprehensible to non-weapon smith.  But most weapon smiths (Competent+) can understand it.

(E)
But the book: "Metalcrafting, a retrospective" could help an aspiring metalcrafter start his craft, and perhaps "enable" it in labors. (as in, it can be assigned, not as in its immediately assigned.)

 

[Alfrodo]

Also, to add to the academy thing.

I took a random dwarf, Cerol Adilser, and I'm looking at his personality and values, just to see what that might mean for his hypothetical academy.

He values craftsmanship and art. (He's going to like a big, fancy guild place in worldgen, or higher expectations for his guild place in dorf mode.)

He values law, cooperation honesty & loyalty greatly. (He's less likely to have any secrets or tolerate such.)

He values friendship and family. (going to have looser prerequisites for students.)

He really values skill and hard work (Students have to be at least adept-expert before they can leave and do their profession themselves.)

Values merrymaking and leisure (Likely to want a nice selection of wines and ales, and a nice dining room, for excellent parties)

Values commerce and is disturbed by nature. (Not sure what these would do, maybe he would prefer a city location in worldgen.)

He's not lustful. (N/A?)

He's very accepting of other races and cultures (He'd be okay with a goblin or kobold enrolling)

He's always hopeful about the future. (N/A?)

He has a sense of duty (More likely to have classes frequently)

He is fearful in the face of danger. (N/A?)

He is very Humble (More likely to build in wildness in worldgen, lower expectations for furnishings.)

He is not a perfectionist (lower expectations for furnishings and students "graduate" earlier.)

He hangs onto grievances (N/A?)

He is not very ambitious (Less likely to actually found academy, students "graduate" earlier and lower furnishing expectations.)

He doesn't care what others think of him. (Again, smaller less well furnished academy.)

So, He'd have a moderately sized and furnished academy, with few restrictions on who can join. Students would generally graduate at the Competent level. And he would build it in a city, with dining rooms for partying. And would not tolerate any secret rooms or in-academy organizations.

[Ribs]

Well, I'm not sure that a book alone actually helps at all, is the problem.

I mean, I have a Probability textbook from college with me that I guarantee you would be illegible to over 99.9% of the English-literate population.  It takes a very intimate understanding of high-level mathematics to even approach the book, and notably over half the class of very intelligent people failed that course, and not for too much partying.  Without the pressure of a failing grade looming over your head and constant trips to the TAs to learn this stuff, there would be no learning it at all, as almost nobody has the will to push through a nearly illegible tome to master what is in it on their own time.

You don't learn some things by just reading about them, you have to do them.  There's a reason the bulk of a math textbook is made up of the problems you have to do, because the lessons are meaningless gibberish until you actually solve problems with them enough time that they get engraved on your brain.  My 2nd grade math class mostly consisted of handing us sheet after sheet of basic math problems, and timing how long it took each of us to fill them out.

Technology is advanced on the factory floor, as they say.  (Which is a large part of why I hate standard video game tech trees...) 

I mean, there are some arts that really are just plain dead.  Nobody knows how to make Greek Fire, for example, because it was a secret that was kept secret by never writing it down. 

People have forgotten how Medieval martial arts were performed, even with detailed textbooks, and historians and reenactors argue over many details, especially when it takes a long period of actual hands-on reenactment to even get a grip of what the books were even talking about.  Reenactors are basically just reinventing the whole field through use.

Of course you can't learn advanced mathemathics without learning the basics first. My post with the carpentry scenario touches on some of your points. I think you're right in the sense that most things are only truly learned through repetitive practice, but consider the following:

Lets suppose that your manager/bookkeeper has to calculate the ammount of goods being produced and consumed, storage space, etc as part of his job. He only has a very rudimentary understanding of mathemathics. No mater how hard he trained, he could only advance so far.

Now lets say he aquires a book with some useful math formulas in it, made purposely for the kind of caltulations he needs to do on a day-to-day basis. If he was smart enough to figure out how to use a few of them, he could much more realistically progress his math skills by trying to use them practically on his job. So books could work more as a slight boost to their skill gain (like Alfrodo suggested), and, more importantly, allow them to achieve higher levels at that skill that would be impossible for them without a tutor.

Of course, not nearly as effective as having a teacher hammering those formulas onto your skull for years, but I think it's not impossible to learn like this. I'm not a native english speaker, and I learned most of my english through reading and writing (and of course listening). Believe it or not, in the beginning it was a lot more reading than writing. Reading really helped me form my vocabulary, while the practice of writing mostly helped with my grammar (which is still not that great).

Yes, we lost a lot of knolwedge over the centuries and books are not a perfect way of retaining information. Still, they are certainly far better than nothing. Specific formulas, for example, like the infamous greek fire is something that could have easily been preserved in a book. That being said, chemistry (or alchemy, or whatever else the game may adopt) is certainly a candidate for "things that can be learned with the help of books".

I'm not even that keen on having skills being learned through books, to be honest. So more importantly, what do you think of having academies that work kind of like taverns? Meaning, foreigners comming and staying in them for some time, paying fees, etc?

[Ribs]

He's not lustful (less likely to use his inflluence to hit one his pupils)

This is a game where you can kill babies using puppy corpses as weapons. I think you could probably include some mild innapropriate sexual tention there without shocking anyone, if we're going that far as to consider every single detail of the dwarf's personalities! ha.

He hangs onto grievances (more likely to fail or expel students who he holds grudges against)

[Alfrodo]

I'm not even that keen on having skills being learned through books, to be honest. So more importantly, what do you think of having academies that work kind of like taverns? Meaning, foreigners comming and staying in them for some time, paying fees, etc?

Well, I'm thinking more worldgen academies. But I have to keep in mind dorfy academies.

I don't think it should be "like a tavern" in that you say:

Hey! I want an academy here and here! I want a masonry academy right now and Urist Momuzidek (an adequate mason, who recently immigrated and took up mining due to the lack of work.) is the headmaster!

Hey! I want a cooking academy too! right now!

No. I don't like that. But...

I do like the idea that a dwarf might decide to build an academy at your fortress, when he feels he is a master (not objective, depends on confidence.) and he becomes a noble, a headmaster who still performs his labors in conjunction with teaching and headmastering, in which he then asks for dorms, dining rooms and classrooms in which to establish his academy.

 And if you want, you can turn him down.  I'm sure you'd be a little upset if a dwarf up and established a potash making academy without your consent.

[NW_Kohaku]

In the case of learning a language, reading a book is practical training.  (Which would basically be the equivalent of training literacy through reading.)

If anything, I would be most in agreement with a % learning rate gain with books.  (I.E. reading a book gives you +20% skill experience when you train it after reading for a period of time.) That would simulate the idea that someone would be able to try out different techniques they couldn't come up with on their own without a lot more fumbling.  I'd also prefer it if books were keyed to specific skill levels.  (I.E. "Carpentry for Dummies" doesn't work on a master carpenter, and "Urist Ashentomb's compendium of Advanced Accounting" doesn't work on anything less than Accomplished (10), and has nothing more to teach you past Legendary 1.)

And to go back to the academy idea, I again think it's a very good one.  I'd personally love a concept like becoming the headquarters of a specific guild, and being the place that all the would-be architechts in the realm go to study advanced techniques like job cancellation traps. (What do you mean that's not a real skill?!)

It adds meaning to the fortress as part of a larger world, rather than the sum total of the world to most players.  (Most players happily atom-smash the migrants they don't want, and think nothing of causing the extinction of their race when they abandon a site, since, hey, they'll just generate a new world, anyway!)

The creation of an academy shouldn't be something that a dwarf decides on their own, however.  It should involve something like royal decree or recognition of mastery by other dwarves to the point that people start naturally coming to your fort just to meet the legendary weaver dwarf that crafted that artifact cat bone sock.

[Alfrodo]

If anything, I would be most in agreement with a % learning rate gain with books.  (I.E. reading a book gives you +20% skill experience when you train it after reading for a period of time.) That would simulate the idea that someone would be able to try out different techniques they couldn't come up with on their own without a lot more fumbling.  I'd also prefer it if books were keyed to specific skill levels.  (I.E. "Carpentry for Dummies" doesn't work on a master carpenter, and "Urist Ashentomb's compendium of Advanced Accounting" doesn't work on anything less than Accomplished (10), and has nothing more to teach you past Legendary 1.)

An excellent addition to C)

The creation of an academy shouldn't be something that a dwarf decides on their own, however.  It should involve something like royal decree or recognition of mastery by other dwarves to the point that people start naturally coming to your fort just to meet the legendary weaver dwarf that crafted that artifact cat bone sock.

What I had in mind was that, a dwarf with sufficient skill with an interest in creating a guild/academy, would ask an authority figure of some sort (Mayor, expedition leader, baron, count, duke, king, queen champion with 3000 kills) and, the figure might personally reject, but It would basically give you an option.

Libash igriliod: I humbly ask for consent to establish a butchery academy here in Shadyarrows, will you allow me to engage in my endeavor?
a: Screw you. There are better uses of our resources.
b: Go ahead, I'm sure shadyarrows will greatly benefit from this organization.

He's not lustful (less likely to use his inflluence to hit one his pupils)

Well, I think that would happen naturally. But I think high lust would mean: more likely to admit a member of the headmasters preferred sex. (A lusty straight male dwarf headmaster would have a little bias toward lady dwarves enrolling. even if they don't quite fit the standards...)

Also, let's talk tuition.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I think that would happen naturally. But I think high lust would mean: more likely to admit a member of the headmasters preferred sex. (A lusty straight male dwarf headmaster would have a little bias toward lady dwarves enrolling. even if they don't quite fit the standards...)

Also, let's talk tuition.

That presumes a whole lot about the way that sexism and sex drive work that would fall outside the topic of this thread...   (Why wouldn't sex drive contribute to a Mad Men viewpoint that women are just there for sex, and shouldn't be involved in their serious work?)

Anyway, back to the academy part, I'd prefer to see it be something more fluid and incremental than a declaration. I.E. a single dwarf passing through wants to learn from a master, then a couple more learn, then a few dwarves come to your fort specifically for that master, then you can start thinking about expanding the facilities to make it a serious portion of your fortress and having multiple instructors.  (Although having royal decree state that we need more weaponsmiths or axelords or whatever in this realm if we are to survive, and therefore, you need to prepare suitable teachers within 3 years, upon which time you will receive students.  To aid you in this, have this shipment of 50 ingots of steel.)

[Alfrodo]

Well, I think that would happen naturally. But I think high lust would mean: more likely to admit a member of the headmasters preferred sex. (A lusty straight male dwarf headmaster would have a little bias toward lady dwarves enrolling. even if they don't quite fit the standards...)

Also, let's talk tuition.

That presumes a whole lot about the way that sexism and sex drive work that would fall outside the topic of this thread...   (Why wouldn't sex drive contribute to a Mad Men viewpoint that women are just there for sex, and shouldn't be involved in their serious work?)

Anyway, back to the academy part, I'd prefer to see it be something more fluid and incremental than a declaration. I.E. a single dwarf passing through wants to learn from a master, then a couple more learn, then a few dwarves come to your fort specifically for that master, then you can start thinking about expanding the facilities to make it a serious portion of your fortress and having multiple instructors.  (Although having royal decree state that we need more weaponsmiths or axelords or whatever in this realm if we are to survive, and therefore, you need to prepare suitable teachers within 3 years, upon which time you will receive students.  To aid you in this, have this shipment of 50 ingots of steel.)

hmmm... What do you think of all of this, Ribs?

I guess you're right, the establishment of a guild should not be the whim of a random dwarf in fort mode. (It should work that way in worldgen to simplify it. Just assume a sufficiently skilled kobold might have disciples. oops, forgot scholarly relationships are tracked in worldgen.)

So, if there's an interest in his teachings from traveling adventurers, poets or scholars, he might consider doing the steps I proposed before. (Hey Duchess, can I start a kicker guild? a: screw you. b: ok)