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Author Topic: "Tavern-like" Academies  (Read 11403 times)

Alfrodo

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2015, 04:47:35 pm »

Alright, after thinking for a bit on the subject, I believe there may be some ways to add interesting complexity to this system. 

For one, I remembered this thread I started when I was playing adventurer mode a lot, and think it can be applied similarly to academies.  That is, students need to take time off or have a diversified curriculum.  For workers, this means something like only having their class time once a week before going back to their jobs.  For full-time guest students, they'll probably expect to get a well-rounded curriculum. (And they may not necessarily want to visit unless they can get a full, or at least mostly-full classical education...)

This means that, rather than having everyone just sit in one big class and players forgetting about it, you need to have multiple classes as well as dormitories and other accommodations.  Crime potential should be an incentive to keep general, tavern, and academy living spaces separate. 

Further, classes should have some means of interfering with one another.  I suggest something like the noise system that was removed from earlier versions.  Classes might generate noise or create some sort of visual disturbance such that segregating them is required to avoid problems. 

Further, each class should take up resources.  Woodworking classes would need workshops to train their students, while more esoteric training that doesn't involve crafting things would take up paper.  This generates a need for logistics to keep the classes supplied. 

Dormitories could also require a desk or at least a communal area with a desk so that full-time students do "homework" of a sorts for certain classes.  Access to libraries for several other classes also make good sense.

All of this combined should create a nice bustle of traffic between classes, dorms, and dining halls that would generate interesting logistic puzzles for the player.

That's basically exactly what I had in mind the entire time. (Aside from the multi-classroom issues, I wanted separate classes but I didn't think much about it other than each Headmaster noble needs a separate classroom of a reasonable value.)  But I think I'm just bad at expressing myself.

Fortress libraries and academy ones would work either way, if there's no academy library, the student will have to look in the fortress one.  Which would probably be annoying for the student.

I think my problem was I got too hung up on personality bits early on.
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Dragoon508

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2015, 09:39:14 am »

Alright I have some input on this idea if you will have me. Side tangent first however, I don't think personalities should go. It is a part of what makes the game unique.

Now then on to the mechanics of my idea for teaching and learning. The first portion is that you need to remember that most skills in this game are practical, and not engaged with a higher learning aspect. A master and apprentice mind set is probably what needs to be done.

A dwarf teacher that is skilled enough can take on students for your academy or guild hall. You assign him similar to how you operate your military, you set up a "class" with him at the head and assign him students. So for instance you have a master carpenter, and want him to train 2 students. So you assign him to the "class" as the teacher then pick 2 dwarves for him to teach. Similar to how the military works no with demonstrations the teacher will schedule one and his students attend for the lecture. You assign him a workshop for him to teach at and set up a schedule similar to how the schedule works for the military right now. So you could say this month you teach while this month you do not. You will also select what subjects you wish to teach, the menu will display what is required to teach, such as an assigned workshop, in this case a carpenters shop. Now this would mean while the class is in session the shop could not be used for other orders.

For resources you set up how much can be used per season for teaching. So say you only want the teacher to use ten logs a season, you set the menu to that and when he teaches he will only use 10 logs. Now you could let them use more logs for a faster rate of learning but that would mean more resources used. A student can make a wooden chair for instance while this is happening, so it could be sold. But it would not be of a major quality.

Books would be an additional resource to help speed up teaching but you can do without if need be. But you would want to try to have a copy of a book for each student as less books means less speed of teaching. Now the books should not become personal possessions but the student may buy a copy for his own use for the future, that he can read when on break or something if he so chooses, but it would not give him a skill gain if he already "graduated".

A larger class means the teaching is a bit slower and the students do not gain as much experience compared to a smaller class size, but it would take more time to train each student one on one than it would be to teach all of them together.

As for foreign students wanting to come to be taught by the teacher. A message would appear to be asked to be added to the class. The student would like to graduate within two years lets say, and in reward you get a reward of reputation, favor with the foreign country, along with goods or services, or to tell their friends and family to come to train at your fort. This would work like the current diplomat system does for elves for instance. A foreign student who ends up extremely happy in  your fortress during his stay also has the chance to ask to stay permanently, which could in turn mean his family also moves to your fort.

A teacher can only teach a student up to a certain level, so eventually the student would graduate and get a happy thought from it, same with a teacher. This would also open up a new relationship such as teacher and student, which can be positive or negative based on the personality of both. The dwarf could hate the teacher but still graduate for instance.

That is for practical skills that do need to be trained physically. Theoretical skills like architecture or higher learning skills like doctoring would follow a similar setup. You assign the teacher and his students. In this case they would consume different resources, like architecture would need paper or the doctors would need a pig and thread. A military tactics class could want figurines and paper.

Setting up these classes would be designated as a zone. Adding in chairs and tables would help along with a blackboard. But a hospital training area could want beds and traction tables for added learning speeds.

Adding more to a class will improve learning speeds but a student can only learn so much, so no sticking a dwarf in the class until he is legendary, maybe cap the learning at professional. This should also include making learning skills slower so you can't brute force your way to legendary within a year.

Now a headmaster noble could be used to help speed up teaching as he would do paperwork that the dwarf teaching would have to do instead. He could also help manage the time better or even be needed to access this system at all, just like you need a militia commander to even start a military.

So this system would mean that it takes time away from other projects that the teacher could be doing like producing doors to teach a class, so slower production ques. But the reward could be 4 new well trained carpenters as the bargain along with additional happy thoughts.

I understand if I am rambling a bit in these points, but my main thoughts were to set up a system using existing mechanics somewhat.
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Alfrodo

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2015, 04:09:21 pm »

Alright I have some input on this idea if you will have me. Side tangent first however, I don't think personalities should go. It is a part of what makes the game unique.

Now then on to the mechanics of my idea for teaching and learning. The first portion is that you need to remember that most skills in this game are practical, and not engaged with a higher learning aspect. A master and apprentice mind set is probably what needs to be done.

A dwarf teacher that is skilled enough can take on students for your academy or guild hall. You assign him similar to how you operate your military, you set up a "class" with him at the head and assign him students. So for instance you have a master carpenter, and want him to train 2 students. So you assign him to the "class" as the teacher then pick 2 dwarves for him to teach. Similar to how the military works no with demonstrations the teacher will schedule one and his students attend for the lecture. You assign him a workshop for him to teach at and set up a schedule similar to how the schedule works for the military right now. So you could say this month you teach while this month you do not. You will also select what subjects you wish to teach, the menu will display what is required to teach, such as an assigned workshop, in this case a carpenters shop. Now this would mean while the class is in session the shop could not be used for other orders.

For resources you set up how much can be used per season for teaching. So say you only want the teacher to use ten logs a season, you set the menu to that and when he teaches he will only use 10 logs. Now you could let them use more logs for a faster rate of learning but that would mean more resources used. A student can make a wooden chair for instance while this is happening, so it could be sold. But it would not be of a major quality.

Books would be an additional resource to help speed up teaching but you can do without if need be. But you would want to try to have a copy of a book for each student as less books means less speed of teaching. Now the books should not become personal possessions but the student may buy a copy for his own use for the future, that he can read when on break or something if he so chooses, but it would not give him a skill gain if he already "graduated".

A larger class means the teaching is a bit slower and the students do not gain as much experience compared to a smaller class size, but it would take more time to train each student one on one than it would be to teach all of them together.

As for foreign students wanting to come to be taught by the teacher. A message would appear to be asked to be added to the class. The student would like to graduate within two years lets say, and in reward you get a reward of reputation, favor with the foreign country, along with goods or services, or to tell their friends and family to come to train at your fort. This would work like the current diplomat system does for elves for instance. A foreign student who ends up extremely happy in  your fortress during his stay also has the chance to ask to stay permanently, which could in turn mean his family also moves to your fort.

A teacher can only teach a student up to a certain level, so eventually the student would graduate and get a happy thought from it, same with a teacher. This would also open up a new relationship such as teacher and student, which can be positive or negative based on the personality of both. The dwarf could hate the teacher but still graduate for instance.

That is for practical skills that do need to be trained physically. Theoretical skills like architecture or higher learning skills like doctoring would follow a similar setup. You assign the teacher and his students. In this case they would consume different resources, like architecture would need paper or the doctors would need a pig and thread. A military tactics class could want figurines and paper.

Setting up these classes would be designated as a zone. Adding in chairs and tables would help along with a blackboard. But a hospital training area could want beds and traction tables for added learning speeds.

Adding more to a class will improve learning speeds but a student can only learn so much, so no sticking a dwarf in the class until he is legendary, maybe cap the learning at professional. This should also include making learning skills slower so you can't brute force your way to legendary within a year.

Now a headmaster noble could be used to help speed up teaching as he would do paperwork that the dwarf teaching would have to do instead. He could also help manage the time better or even be needed to access this system at all, just like you need a militia commander to even start a military.

So this system would mean that it takes time away from other projects that the teacher could be doing like producing doors to teach a class, so slower production ques. But the reward could be 4 new well trained carpenters as the bargain along with additional happy thoughts.

I understand if I am rambling a bit in these points, but my main thoughts were to set up a system using existing mechanics somewhat.

I like where you're going with the sliding scale of speed - consumption.
But I keep in mind the "tavern like" aspect of this.

As in, dwarves kinda randomly go there, and vistors might show up to study there.  I don't think I like the idea of shouting at a dwarf "HEY YOU FAT CRAPSACK, THESE ARE YOUR STUDENTS NOW!"
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2015, 05:06:08 pm »

Alright I have some input on this idea if you will have me. Side tangent first however, I don't think personalities should go. It is a part of what makes the game unique.

I never said personalities should go.  I just said they shouldn't be the prime driving factor of whether a game feature works or not.  Personalities are random/beyond the players' control, and generally invisible in their effects, which means that if players select a character with the wrong personality traits, they'll have no idea why nothing is working as it should. 

Basically, it would be something that makes the most DF-literate players who most thoroughly research and understand the game find the game even easier, while frustrating the newer or more learn-as-you-go types of players even further than the game already does. 

A dwarf teacher that is skilled enough can take on students for your academy or guild hall. You assign him similar to how you operate your military, you set up a "class" with him at the head and assign him students. So for instance you have a master carpenter, and want him to train 2 students. So you assign him to the "class" as the teacher then pick 2 dwarves for him to teach. Similar to how the military works no with demonstrations the teacher will schedule one and his students attend for the lecture. You assign him a workshop for him to teach at and set up a schedule similar to how the schedule works for the military right now. So you could say this month you teach while this month you do not. You will also select what subjects you wish to teach, the menu will display what is required to teach, such as an assigned workshop, in this case a carpenters shop. Now this would mean while the class is in session the shop could not be used for other orders.

This is massively more micromanagement-intensive than it needs to be. 

Keep in mind, students are going to be coming and going from the rest of the world on a frequent basis.  What you're suggesting would involve making the player somehow be aware of this prospective student, forcing the player to stop whatever they're doing, and then manually add a new student in... and then that student would presumably leave at some point, and be replaced with new students, again... 

Setting up a system where there's simply classes, and any random visitor can get in if they pass some security screening and pay the tuition without player intervention is far less of a headache for players. 

Now a headmaster noble could be used to help speed up teaching as he would do paperwork that the dwarf teaching would have to do instead. He could also help manage the time better or even be needed to access this system at all, just like you need a militia commander to even start a military.

What paperwork? What generates paperwork, and what happens if you don't complete it?

Also, you don't need a militia commander to start the military.  If you start a military, the first dwarf in will be appointed militia commander.

So this system would mean that it takes time away from other projects that the teacher could be doing like producing doors to teach a class, so slower production ques. But the reward could be 4 new well trained carpenters as the bargain along with additional happy thoughts.

Keep in mind, that's basically useless as a reward for the player.  One legendary carpenter is vastly superior to 4 skilled carpenters, as you only have so much wood you need carved, anyway.  You're basically asking the player to go out of their way to set up an elaborate training area and manually manage the training of multiple dwarves through a cumbersome menu when the same results could probably be achieved as the game stands right now by just setting up a few extra carpentry workshops, setting up their workshop profiles, and telling them to make more barrels and bins for a few seasons. 

Further, the point of all this is to train foreign visitors, which means they'll be leaving the map. 
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Alfrodo

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2015, 05:11:40 pm »

Quote
Further, the point of all this is to train foreign visitors, which means they'll be leaving the map.

Some might stay, and some might come from within the fort. I think I covered that earlier... not sure though.
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Dragoon508

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2015, 11:03:09 pm »


I like where you're going with the sliding scale of speed - consumption.
But I keep in mind the "tavern like" aspect of this.

As in, dwarves kinda randomly go there, and vistors might show up to study there.  I don't think I like the idea of shouting at a dwarf "HEY YOU FAT CRAPSACK, THESE ARE YOUR STUDENTS NOW!"
Well one of the things I am basing these idea upon is dwarves in an inactive squad will drop everything to go do independent training. The system would work similar to that but the teacher would do something like the military organizing the demonstration at random. So if you have a lazy teacher then he would not teach as much, same thing with a dwarf who is lazy going on break constantly.

I think we would kind of want a lot more control over our dwarves than them just randomly deciding to go to the tavern that day. So it is why I focused on the random nature of visitors as you never know when you would get one.`
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Alfrodo

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2015, 10:31:00 am »

Well..

I don't really want academies to be something you just up and say "ENGINEER, POOT ACADEMY HERE!".  They should be at least sort of special to have around. Like an artifact.

You should have SOME control over the classes, teachers and overall quality of education.  But I don't think it should be a subsidized academy.

(Refer to long discussion regarding semi-independent organizations)
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Dragoon508

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Re: "Tavern-like" Academies
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2015, 10:55:19 am »

Well..

I don't really want academies to be something you just up and say "ENGINEER, POOT ACADEMY HERE!".  They should be at least sort of special to have around. Like an artifact.

You should have SOME control over the classes, teachers and overall quality of education.  But I don't think it should be a subsidized academy.

(Refer to long discussion regarding semi-independent organizations)

I somewhat agree with this, although like I said initially this system I was talking about was mainly to piggyback on an existing system, namely the Military system.

It would require that skills take a longer amount of time to get however. I mean you can get a legendary dwarf within a year if you hardly try. As NW_Kohaku put it, one legendary dwarf is more valuable than 4 moderately trained ones. But if getting to legendary was something like six years of time without being trained it would be more valuable I think.

I think the system I discussed also may be better for how a guild would operate in regards of teaching.

But if you want to keep academies special it may be better to focus on skills that are not easy to get instead of other skills. So there would not be a carpentry academy, but skills like medical, architecture, alchemy, or tactics could be an example of what an academy teaches along with advancing knowledge in that area.

So you can think of an academy in 3 parts, you have your teachers and students, your scholars, and then you administrators.

Your teachers of course teach the skills and students learn, in order to teach they need a classroom and supplies, so a military tactics class would need a basic set of books for each student that would not be consumed, but they would consume paper and figurines for instance, as I stated earlier the more supplies they have means the faster they can teach but this would be capped at some point. You could still assign your teacher students like I proposed earlier

Scholars advance the subjects that are taught at the academy which in turn means different books can be added to the courses making the students learn faster and more things. This would consume paper and other supplies as well.

Admin would make sure that things run smoothly like set schedules and work orders for the scholars and teachers.

Overall this would mean that in order to have an academy it would require a lot of infrastructure to support it from your fortress, so it is not something you could make right off the bat. Foreign students will come to ask to be taught via a diplomat screen where it pops up, you can agree to teach the student and they will tell you how fast they would like to be trained in order to get a reward. So for instance they want to graduate within 2 years. You have to have the supplies and teachers for that to happen.
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