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[DragonDePlatino]

Hmm if anything I think his design is going to be somewhat what he has already and somewhat like this.



But at the same time different after all it's what tempted him to do 32x. That's obsidians new graphics btw, he's busy irl sadly... Why rl comes between a man and his video games is beyond me. 

Oh yes, I almost forgot about those graphics. They're realistic like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup but still nice and crisp. I always loved those graphics but they're the reason I was discouraging 32px earlier. They're super-detailed but it's gonna be tough drawing all of DF's items in a style like that. But Dibujor said he was comfortable drawing in 32px so I don't see why he couldn't give it a shot.

[oriramikad]

I don't prefer full bodies. There's much less face detail, the differences between races are harder to see, it's harder to find them on the map, and the size of items is already so out of proportion compared to the people that making them full-bodied seems odd and clashes with the rest of the set.

[Dibujor]

There are many different approaches you could take to 32px tiles.

From what I've seen, I think most Dwarf Fortress players gravitate towards a style like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Very gritty, western and realistically proportioned. The colors are quite dark and a serious tone is attempted overall.

For you, I think you might enjoy drawing in a style like Desktop Dungeons. The designs are cartoony and have big heads like in Spacefox, but they have a lot of details so they don't clash with more realistic tiles.

Finally, there's the 32x32 style I really like. Something like this mockup (which isn't a full game). You have bright colors, visible details and average proportions. I was introduced to roguelikes by Pokemon Mystery Dungeon so I've always been attached to this style.

Also, since you've decided on 32x32, I'd suggest you change the topic name. Try making a poll and ask people what style they would like the creature graphics to be in.

I'm very eclectic when it comes to art styles both in what I like and what I draw. Through my career I've had to draw things in almost all kind of styles you can imagine from cartoony vector  anime type characters to realistic vehicles and buildings . My first introduction to rpg's and dungeon games were the first Baldur's Gate and the first Diablo so they hold the fondest memories for me. But while I love this type of graphics I also love this style (the same as this) and the "french way of doing jrpg's".

There are lots of styles that can serve my purpose of "realistic". I'm already going in a direction that I like with the normal tiles and the races are were I have more doubts. I want the "realism" to serve my purpose of what I envisioned but I don't want to feel constrained by it.

I don't know what I'll end up doing  with the races but I know one of the most important things for me is clarity. You want to look at pretty graphics, but you also want to know what's going on, and better if you can do that at a glance and don't have to look twice to see if that's a dwarf warrior, an elf merchant or a goblin raider.

That's were I think the kind of graphics of Dungeon Crawl Stone soup fall short. If zoomed enough they look good, but with hundreds of those tiles on screen all is a blurry mess for me, I could not tell apart a goblin from a zombie. We're talking about small sizes here and you have to take into account not only the original 32px size but when people zooms out and all is smaller.

I LOVE those Obsidian graphics (that's what convinced me to start a new tileset myself instead of "just" completing spacefox) but I'm not convinced with his graphics for races. They look terrific, don't get me wrong, but trying to tell apart professions and races through the whole body at smaller sizes is harder than just focus on a prominent portion like the head (I believe it's easier to tell apart things through head and headwear than through tiny bodies and heads, if we were talking 64 or 128 px though...). He also shows difference in size through objects and characters and I don't know if it's worth it, you can show different sizes through the various stages of an object (raw, small and big gems) but making a dwarf smaller than an elf? As the game is now, a Titan or dragon are the same size as an elf so...

Anyway about at this size, with "a big head character" I wasn't talking about "a head with tiny legs" like in spacefox, when I said you could see my first draft, I meant it, here:



That's the first draft I made for a dwarf in the beginning, though it ended up being a statue but that's what I meant with big head more or less. Actually there's a game that has made a terrific job of having a realistic style where the characters are just heads.

Spoiler: Battle Brothers (click to show/hide)

Though I want full bodied races, not just heads, but there you can see that with just the head you can tell what every character is.

Man, I have to make me some sketches and see, perhaps this mix of styles in the pack will give it more personality and tell it apart from others (and from that new Obsidian one if/when he finishes it). Perhaps when I have some creatures drawn I'll make a poll, now without any graphic is a bit pointless imho.

I love that style. The subtle height differences of the races look great imho.

See?, everyone has different tastes the thing I like less about that Obsidian set is the one you like the most.

Hmm if anything I think his design is going to be somewhat what he has already and somewhat like this.

But at the same time different after all it's what tempted him to do 32x. That's obsidians new graphics btw, he's busy irl sadly... Why rl comes between a man and his video games is beyond me. 

Ha!, thanks for the vote of confidence 

I think a lot of what looks great about Dibujor's workshops and what was just posted above is how great the colours look in them. This is going to be lost by the game colourising the whole tile unfortunately. Hopefully mifki ends up coming up with a way for partial colourising!

Indeed!

looks very appealing! especialy full figured humanoid. i am sure they gonna look even better in 32x32.
and look at the gems! the turquoise color. i would piss my beard if i see a warehouse full of them!

Those graphics from Obsidian already are 32x32 tiles

Unfortunately unless something drastically changes in the way the game colorizes things that's not possible (unless you "deactivate" the game coloring for materials and the ALL the gems will look the same regardless of material). That's an example of how to shade a thing with different hues and not different brightness. If you desaturate those gems in a graphic editing program you'd be surprised to see that where those beautiful blues and turquoises are now you'll see almost the same shade of grey, ergo the game won't have those tonal variations there. That's why I stopped myself from drawing the regular tiles in color, just to not be tempted and then disapointed when the game actually doesn't seem anything near what I colored.


Aaaand..... woah, that's a big wall of text right there

[mifki]

There are many different approaches you could take to 32px tiles.

From what I've seen, I think most Dwarf Fortress players gravitate towards a style like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Very gritty, western and realistically proportioned. The colors are quite dark and a serious tone is attempted overall.

For you, I think you might enjoy drawing in a style like Desktop Dungeons. The designs are cartoony and have big heads like in Spacefox, but they have a lot of details so they don't clash with more realistic tiles.

Finally, there's the 32x32 style I really like. Something like this mockup (which isn't a full game). You have bright colors, visible details and average proportions. I was introduced to roguelikes by Pokemon Mystery Dungeon so I've always been attached to this style.

Also, since you've decided on 32x32, I'd suggest you change the topic name. Try making a poll and ask people what style they would like the creature graphics to be in.

I'm very eclectic when it comes to art styles both in what I like and what I draw. Through my career I've had to draw things in almost all kind of styles you can imagine from cartoony vector  anime type characters to realistic vehicles and buildings . My first introduction to rpg's and dungeon games were the first Baldur's Gate and the first Diablo so they hold the fondest memories for me. But while I love this type of graphics I also love this style (the same as this) and the "french way of doing jrpg's".

While I understand it's dwarves, underground and all, and I love the tiles you've made so far with all their details, I probably prefer graphics more like the last link. I'm playing with Spacefox because it's very clean and the least dark/oppressive tileset.

[Dibujor]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Everyone has their own preferences and you can't please everybody. In fact if I had to choose one art style i feel comfortable with, it would be that painterly style you like, love that "french school" (I'm not that fond of their anime type characters but that's another matter). And that could be pretty "realistic" and detailed

 I love spacefox because of it's clarity and "cheerfulness" but I also love those Obsidian graphics. I based my idea on lotr dwarven designs from the movies so I don't want to go all "candy world" but I also don't want to go Grim and dark. But one wonderful thing about DF are the color sets, you can change the mood of a tileset changing it's color set. In fact I love the spacefox colors though I'm not sure  that could go well with my set.

Now, when I said I want a realistic pack I meant that as a "detailed" pack, not realistic in the sense of proportions, colors and till the last nail of the tap of a barrell. That style you like while a bit cartoony is pretty realistic in the sense I mean it. I think what I try to do is a middle ground between Obsidian and Spacefox. Clear and recognizable tiles without the grimness and oppression (that, as I said can be added to a certain degree changing color sets).

To be honest I didn't think much about it, I just draw the tiles how I like them (and I just can hope they're good and clear enough). It just showed up when Aydjile talked about races and all that, where is more evident that you have to choose a style for making them recognizable.

[StagnantSoul]

I personally prefer the "dark and oppressive" look really. It sits well with my fortresses, makes everything look nice. This guy's a true artist, can't wait to try out his pack when it's done!

[Button]

I find personally that the signifier that makes it easiest to tell what's what is having color scheme shorthands for different races' soldiers. For example in Phoebus, you know that goblin soldiers are all in green; elf soldiers are green on the bottom, yellow on top; dwarf soldiers are beige; and human soldiers are gray. The details help you distinguish what's what within a category, but the important information is visible at a glance.

[Dibujor]

Yes, I agree. I won't be relying only in my drawing skills to tell apart professions and races. A good color scheme for the races has to be implemented too. I got this while creating the new hunter and war dogs for spacefox, trying to find a way to tell them apart, because a collar wasn't enough.

I'm also talking from my point of view, nothing that I say I consider it to be the absolute truth, just the way I see things

[Dibujor]

Now, could someone please, confirm that this are ALL the tiles needed for the world map?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Row 1:
various forest trees, various forest trees, (river sources, caves), fortress, towns

Row 2:
Largest forest retreats, Cedar forest, conifer forest, mountain

Row 3:
(savanna, swamp, shrubland, marsh ), town

Row 4:
Tombs, Hamlets

Row 5:
Necromancer's tower

Row 6:
Badlands, Volcano

Row 7:
Hills

Row 8:
Low mountains

Row 9:
Elven forest retreat

Row 10:
Hamlets, Hamlets

Row 11:
Goblin settlements

Row 12:
Overworld rivers, Overworld rivers, Overworld rivers

Row 13:
Overworld rivers/roads (all 6)

Row 14:
Overworld rivers, Overworld rivers

Row 15:
Tropical forest,Dark fortress, Ruins, Dwarven cities, Hills

Row 16:
Hamlets, Willow forest/swamp, Water, Tundra, Tundra, Badlands, (Savanna, marsh, grassland, badlands)


Things written like (this) mean that tile is used for various things. I want to start with the basic tileset and that is the map tiles since twbt doesn't override those. But looking at the wiki, not all the tiles used for the map are stated that clearly (a lot of them are, but not all). Sometimes is hard to understand things from the wiki without an intimate knowledge of the game. It's easier for me to understand keeping in the set just the tiles used instead of having to look everytime which row and tile I need.

Also, when different tiles are used for the same thing ( hamlets) how that works? I mean what's based on?. Different terrains are easy to understand, the game just colorizes them differently so the same tile can represent savannah, swamp, etc. But hamlets? should I do different styles?

I hope some of the tiles can ve changed in the raws because I'd like to have different tiles for river sources and caves for example.

And finally, should I make the map in perspective?



Or just front tiles (more or less)

[oriramikad]

Perspective. Go all out. 

[DragonDePlatino]

Hmm...According to this wiki page, you're missing some tiles.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Row 3:
Human cities(?), rocky wastelands, human cities(?), rocky wastelands

Row 8:
Lakes

Row 12:
Glaciers, glaciers, glaciers, dead trees

Row 13:
Dead trees

Row 15:
Shrublands

Anything in cyan:
Rivers(?)

Also, a tip from an old ROM hacker...If you think you're missing something, erase all of your known tiles from the tileset and boot up the game. Generate a world, then look around and see if there are any tiles left. You can also scribble inside a tile and boot up the game to double-check if you're right about something.

Finally, I'm afraid almost nothing in the map can be changed in the raws. You can change the ASCII tiles of trees in the plant files, but that's just about it. Also, I'd advise against adding worldgen map tiles until everything else has already been overwritten (including buildings). If you don't, then you'll be seeing little mountains and rivers when you're playing fortress mode. :/

Oh, but it's really nice that you're compiling this information together. I was thinking of starting on my worldgen tileset soon and this will save me a lot of trouble. The perspective tiles look nice as well.

[Dibujor]

Haha, well that's new. I'm making something you'll find useful and not the other way around as is the norm ;P

Thanks, I was looking just a this wiki page. That's a bit of a problem, you have to hunt down various wiki pages to be sure you have all the tiles for the same thing. Perhaps when we finish with our sets, adding all this information to the tileset creation pages of the wiki will help somebody.

It would be nice if someone can confirm your findings, although you probably are one of the most knowledgeable people about tiles around here since you have been messing with them a lot lately.

Thanks for the tips. I usually do the scribbling thing when I texture some 3D, to be sure where the texture goes but I haven't thought about erasing the know tiles to see what's left.

About doing the map tiles... well, it's still a long ways till my tileset is usable so I though starting from the basic set and going "upwards". Since TWBT doesn't override map generation that means the basic set are the tiles for the map and the rest gets overriden over them.

[Edit] Oh, now I get it, you're taking about not adding tiles for the map in the raws...right? fine then, though it would be nice to be able to change somethings

[LeoCean]

If you want to do it then you shouldn't let someone else hold you back, if mifiki has a nice map tileset he will be more inclined to try to make map overrides. Albeit he's has quite a bit on his plate right now but after he eats his vegetables it could happen. Just hope he eats vegetables.

I'm pretty sure adding your and Dragons map stuff is correct. I knew your sheet at least left out the walls and the grates which are used in cities, from a quick glance. Cause I was also interested in such a world map before.

It's certainly not that hard to quit df after you've embarked and switch tilesets from the map tileset to the main tileset if someone wishes to have a fancy embark map. It's not like the tileset gets used much besides for the embark map in the embark fiasco with twbt activated. Cause I for one would do such a thing if a map tileset existed *wink wink*..

Some things do change in the embark map when moused over but I think if you have all those "overrides" they should cover everything and if they don't it will stick out like a elephant in 10x10 parking lot if it is acii and everything else is gorgeous.

The hamlets should be the different human population levels (Humans really are full of themselves in df, they just can't have one design) and they are colorized in the game lighter and darker I believe , on the map it may be the most difficult thing to understand because everyone else has one icon pretty much.

[Max™]

For adventurer mode a lot of that map stays with the map tileset I think so gorgeous stuff there is great.

[Dibujor]

If you want to do it then you shouldn't let someone else hold you back, if mifiki has a nice map tileset he will be more inclined to try to make map overrides. Albeit he's has quite a bit on his plate right now but after he eats his vegetables it could happen. Just hope he eats vegetables.

I'm pretty sure adding your and Dragons map stuff is correct. I knew your sheet at least left out the walls and the grates which are used in cities, from a quick glance. Cause I was also interested in such a world map before.

It's certainly not that hard to quit df after you've embarked and switch tilesets from the map tileset to the main tileset if someone wishes to have a fancy embark map. It's not like the tileset gets used much besides for the embark map in the embark fiasco with twbt activated. Cause I for one would do such a thing if a map tileset existed *wink wink*..

Some things do change in the embark map when moused over but I think if you have all those "overrides" they should cover everything and if they don't it will stick out like a elephant in 10x10 parking lot if it is acii and everything else is gorgeous.

The hamlets should be the different human population levels (Humans really are full of themselves in df, they just can't have one design) and they are colorized in the game lighter and darker I believe , on the map it may be the most difficult thing to understand because everyone else has one icon pretty much.

Yeah, I know some of the stuff I'm doing now is perhaps changing in the future when mifki works his magic with twbt (I have no doubt he will do it eventually, when he has the time) but I have to start from something and just for organization I want to build this from the ground up. In the end it doesn't matter that much, the important bit to cover is the drawing of the tiles. The rest is just organization and moving around drawn tiles from one place to another and that shouldn't take much

Ok, so with the corrected and expanded information here you have another table with the tiles for the world map. This time I've included the number of the tiles so it should be easier to check them on the wiki page for those who don't know the tile numbers out of habit. (The image with the numbers have to be that big, otherwise the numbers don't fit in the tiles)
 

Spoiler: World Map tiles (click to show/hide)

And here you have the "meaning" of every tile (what it's used for in the context of the world map), numbered. Items between brackets [] can have their tile changed in the raw data files (acording to THIS wiki page)

You were right there DragondePlatino, there's not much you can change, and nothing worth changing.

Spoiler: Use for every tile (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]


Row 1:

5 - [various forest trees]
6 - [various forest trees]
7 - river sources, caves
9 - fortress
15 - towns

Row 2:

20 - Largest forest retreats
23 - [Cedar forest]
24 - [Conifer forest]
30 - mountain

Row 3:

34 - savanna, swamp, shrubland, marsh 
35 - human city
39 - rocky wasteland
42 - human city
43 - rocky wasteland
44 - town
46 - ?

Row 4:

48 - Tombs
61 - Hamlets

Row 5:

73 - Necromancer's tower

Row 6:

86 - Badlands
94 - Volcano

Row 7:

110 - Hills

Row 8:

126 - Water on lakes
127 - Low mountains

Row 9:

140 - Elven forest retreat

Row 10:

145 - Hamlets
146 - Hamlets

Row 11:

166 - Goblin settlements

Row 12:

176 - Glaciers
177 - Glaciers
178 - Glaciers
179 - Overworld rivers
180 - Overworld rivers
181 - Dead trees
185 - Overworld rivers
186 - Overworld rivers
187 - Overworld rivers
191 - Overworld rivers

Row 13:

192 - Overworld rivers/roads
193 - Overworld rivers/roads
194 - Overworld rivers/roads
195 - Overworld rivers/roads
196 - Overworld rivers/roads
197 - Overworld rivers/roads
198 - [Dead Trees]
200 - Rivers
201 - Rivers
202 - Rivers
203 - Rivers
204 - Rivers
205 - Rivers
206 - Rivers
207 - Rivers

Row 14:

217 - Overworld rivers
218 - Overworld rivers

Row 15:

226 - Tropical forest
227 - Dark fortress
230 - Ruins
231 - Shrublands
234 - Dwarven cities
239 - Hills

Row 16:

240 - Hamlets
244 - [Willow forest/swamp](not sure if terrain or tree here)
247 - Water
249 - Tundra
250 - Tundra
251 - Badlands
252 - Savanna, marsh, grassland, badlands