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[IcyTea31]

"Personal growth need not always be at another's expense. And I agree, societal growth is great too, in fact simply multiple persons advancing together. The fact that the two can be held mutually exclusive actually pushes me toward joining, as in that case I have the clout to stop it from happening. A positive influence, is what I strive to be. And that is why I would like you three to join as well, for a stronger effect."

[FArgHalfnr]

I will not even consider joining if patronius keep on pushing his ideology in my territory. Even if he did, I doubt I would join anyways, but I would end my ban on his worship. And on topic of mutual versus individual, mutual growth imply personal growth, as everyone benefit equally. What I oppose is individualism made at the expense of others.

[Andres]

"Frederick is one who would forcibly convert others to his worship and claim no responsibility since it's actually his follower doing the converting of their own free will, even if he gives them great power to do so. I can never be in a pantheon with him."

"I was giving someone who was praying to me what he wanted."

"So if I find a mortal who prays to me asking for power so they might conquer the other races and force worship of me onto them, I should be allowed to give that mortal power? I'm sorry but this is entirely unacceptable."

[Rolepgeek]

"Leadership is more than power....it is also responsibility...to those people whom one leads...and for the actions of those people...I would think that your follower, Patronius, would be more aware of this than most...although I think that as usual...Iliseth does not actually understand the situation...considering we were speaking of a merchant, not a king..."

[DontBanTheMan]

"Frederick is one who would forcibly convert others to his worship and claim no responsibility since it's actually his follower doing the converting of their own free will, even if he gives them great power to do so. I can never be in a pantheon with him."

"Your claims that he is forcefully converting people is supported by absolutely no evidence. Mortals can worship whoever they damn please; and mortals can make other mortals do whatever they damn well please."

"So if I find a mortal who prays to me asking for power so they might conquer the other races and force worship of me onto them, I should be allowed to give that mortal power? I'm sorry but this is entirely unacceptable."

"How is aiding someone with his dream of becoming wealthy even in the same category? Capitalism is not inherently evil, and you are completely misrepresenting my argument."

"Leadership is more than power....it is also responsibility...to those people whom one leads...and for the actions of those people...I would think that your follower, Patronius, would be more aware of this than most...although I think that as usual...Iliseth does not actually understand the situation...considering we were speaking of a merchant, not a king..."

"I wouldn't disagree with you; leadership is definitely responsibility to those whom one leads. However, Frederick has done no wrong; these claims that he has are based in fantasy."

[FArgHalfnr]

"Leadership is more than power....it is also responsibility...to those people whom one leads...and for the actions of those people...I would think that your follower, Patronius, would be more aware of this than most...although I think that as usual...Iliseth does not actually understand the situation...considering we were speaking of a merchant, not a king..."

But are merchants not kings when money is the only power? If this merchant start capitalism, he will have a clear advantage against those who join later, ensuing his rise to power.

[Andres]

I form a pantheon with Uztot and Lithus/Luthus. All public and pantheon actions will be made cheaper and stronger by having the other gods help by default (no forced energy contribution). The other gods' spheres will not be infused by default and won't be unless all involved parties agree.

"Iliseth does not actually understand the situation...considering we were speaking of a merchant, not a king..."

"I wouldn't disagree with you; leadership is definitely responsibility to those whom one leads. However, Frederick has done no wrong; these claims that he has are based in fantasy."

"It's a similar situation to what Frederick is doing. He's conquering all those he sees regardless of whether they want to be conquered or not. He finds whatever excuse he can and does so, Patronius always helping by supplying him with more power. In all three cases, it is a god supplying a mortal with power so they can indirectly increase the god's power at the expense of others, all the while the gods are saying it's neither their fault nor their responsibility."

[Rolepgeek]

"You all seem to assume...a great deal...power is far more than coin...whether it is capitalism or communism...democracy or dictatorship....power lies in loyalty, and strength of will...power lies in knowledge, and perception....the versions of these that are purchased are mere Shadows of their true nature...it is rare for purchased loyalty to be true until death...and nothing, Liuthus, is ever truly assured...nor is he necessarily interested in power...some merely want comforts and a simple life...would you attack the poor fellow for wanting something better for himself and his family...?...a merchant provides a service, that of distributing and transporting goods...it is not a perfect system, perhaps, but no system ever is...let Progress run it's course...if tribal societies are communist....then would not capitalism be progress...only being possible in more advanced societies?..."

"...and you 'united' Humanity under your priests, Iliseth regardless....of whether they wished to be united or not...what someone wants, and what is best for them, are not always the same....all of you make far too much fuss about such matters..."

[Vgray]

 I agree to form the pantheon with Iliseth and Lithus/Luthus.

"Hasn't my counterpart of Conflict all but admitted having a part in the formation of this kingdom?"

[Andres]

"...and you 'united' Humanity under your priests, Iliseth regardless....of whether they wished to be united or not...what someone wants, and what is best for them, are not always the same....all of you make far too much fuss about such matters..."

"Firstly, that was at the beginning of their creation when they were all as devoted to me as possible. They would've happily done whatever I asked, my wants becoming their wants. Secondly, I chose my priests from the wisest of Humanity so they could lead their tribes during the early stages of creation since at the time, NO form of government had ever existed. As you said, a flawed system is better than no system, though in this case it's a matter of opinion whether it was flawed or not. Thirdly, tribal leaders eventually took the place of priests as they died and the wisest were presumably born outside the priesthood. All evidence suggests that it was a peaceful and willing transition."

[Stirk]

"...and you 'united' Humanity under your priests, Iliseth regardless....of whether they wished to be united or not...what someone wants, and what is best for them, are not always the same....all of you make far too much fuss about such matters..."

"Firstly, that was at the beginning of their creation when they were all as devoted to me as possible. They would've happily done whatever I asked, my wants becoming their wants. Secondly, I chose my priests from the wisest of Humanity so they could lead their tribes during the early stages of creation since at the time, NO form of government had ever existed. As you said, a flawed system is better than no system, though in this case it's a matter of opinion whether it was flawed. Thirdly, tribal leaders eventually took the place of priests as they died and the wisest were presumably born outside the priesthood. All evidence suggests that it was a peaceful and willing transition."

((Note: One of the Events you missed was the "Regicide", where the majority of Leaders in the world where killed.))

[Andres]

((Note: One of the Events you missed was the "Regicide", where the majority of Leaders in the world where killed.))

(I actually managed to get involved in that. I tried blasting Utther with a cannon but I failed because of PM's low priorities. Just in case you missed it, I said in the OOC that the action would've been done before the cursing, at least she would've sped up the time of the attack to [immediately] when people started talking about the curse. So the tribal leaders only appeared when the theocracies were cast down?)

[Stirk]

((Note: One of the Events you missed was the "Regicide", where the majority of Leaders in the world where killed.))

(I actually managed to get involved in that. I tried blasting Utther with a cannon but I failed because of PM's low priorities. Just in case you missed it, I said in the OOC that the action would've been done before the cursing, at least she would've sped up the time of the attack to immediately when people started talking about the curse. So the tribal leaders only appeared when the theocracies were cast down?)

((Why are you asking me? I forgot that you even made that action. I have had no clue what has been going on since tick one.))

[Andres]

(You just brought up the Regicide for some reason and I thought the two topics were relevant.)

[Stirk]

(You just brought up the Regicide for some reason and I thought the two topics were relevant.)

((I bring up random irrelevant things all the time. It is how I distract and confuse the government agents stalking me.))