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Author Topic: Steam refund program!  (Read 32476 times)

Boltgun

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2015, 05:13:06 am »

I got really mixed feelings. It is a similar policy to what Google play has been doing for ages, and that's a platform with the most F2P apps.

As a dev I am not confortable about how easy it will be to turn that into a free rental instead, do you really need 2 hours to figure if your game will not work on your machine? I hope Valve will investigate abuses are, better, make it 1 hour so short games can exist, as long as their price is right of course.

We will have to wait a couple of months to figure if it helps or hurt. Right now people are testing it so numbers are biased.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 07:50:11 am by Boltgun »
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Retropunch

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2015, 09:46:53 am »

I got really mixed feelings. It is a similar policy to what Google play has been doing for ages, and that's a platform with the most F2P apps.

As a dev I am not confortable about how easy it will be to turn that into a free rental instead, do you really need 2 hours to figure if your game will not work on your machine? I hope Valve will investigate abuses are, better, make it 1 hour so short games can exist, as long as their price is right of course.

We will have to wait a couple of months to figure if it helps or hurt. Right now people are testing it so numbers are biased.

I do know what you mean, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Sure, short games might take a hit, but if they're reasonably priced and good people will probably want to hang onto them (I'll be hanging onto my copy of To The Moon for definite!).

I get the dev hesitation as well (and I know have spoken out) but really I think this is just a symptom of being allowed to get away with shoddy releases with no repercussions for so long. No other product in the world doesn't work when you buy it and just has promises of patches, and this is a huge step forward to stopping that.
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Redzephyr01

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2015, 10:26:43 am »

If a game ends up being ridiculously buggy when it comes out, I think I'd feel safer getting a refund than waiting until there's a patch.
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a1s

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2015, 10:54:20 am »

(I'll be hanging onto my copy of To The Moon for definite!).
So will I, but to the moon is quite a bit longer than 2 hours. I spent "all evening" on it (well into the night, in fact.) Some random sight I googled says it can't be finished in less than 3 (also, I'm a slowpoke)
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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2015, 03:30:01 pm »

For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA
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a1s

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2015, 04:47:17 pm »

For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA
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Sensei

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2015, 07:16:35 pm »

For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA
Success! I used hearsay and anecdotal evidence to support my claim that SR are not harmful, and now a famous person agrees with me, so I was right.
It's far better hearsay and anecdotal evidence than the hearsay and anecdotal evidence used by the people arguing against refunds.

Also seriously it's fucking refunds guys you're really supposed to be able to get a refund. Wouldn't it have been better if this policy was in place for Air Control and Aliens: Colonial Marines?
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nenjin

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2015, 07:26:40 pm »

Colonial Marines is the only game I legitimately want a refund for, because it's the only game I've bought in the last 14 years that simply wouldn't launch at release, and never got a patch.

Would it have been nice to have refunds back in 20--whatever I bought it in? Yeah. But there's nothing to be done for it. They have to have some system to control the masses of returns, and allowing people returns on like 3 year old games would flood them with requests. They needed to start somewhere, and a clean slate as far as what qualifies is most desirable.

I still tried to get a refund on CM, despite knowing it was disqualified. Anyways, I'd rather look to the future where Steam and developers don't get a walk on quality control anymore, rather than the past where they obstinately refused to do it. Little by little, they're being dragged in to providing the kinds of protections consumers expect from retail stores. I suppose I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing not to use Steam because it took EU legislation to get them to do right by the customer.
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chooseusername

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2015, 07:46:13 pm »

Also seriously it's fucking refunds guys you're really supposed to be able to get a refund. Wouldn't it have been better if this policy was in place for Air Control and Aliens: Colonial Marines?
Any time I spend hours on hours working around someone's flawed software, I ponder whether they should be paying me my hourly wage to do work to be able to have a damaged experience playing their game.  Then I remember that it is impossible to make perfect bug free games simply because it would cost too much, and cut them some slack.

Still that doesn't mean I should pay for something that has turned out to be unplayable.  Refunds should be a right.

On that note, I once purchased Thief II budget edition.  The copy protection stopped it from working at all on my Windows XP - no refunds!  I emailed Eidos customer support and asked what I could do.  They were super helpful and gave me links to a web page where a crack could be found to remove the protection.  Problem solved.  I got to play a great game, which I wouldn't have been able to return.  You don't get support like that any more  :D
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Vilanat

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2015, 12:55:34 am »

For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA
Success! I used hearsay and anecdotal evidence to support my claim that SR are not harmful, and now a famous person agrees with me, so I was right.

Actually, it's a legitimate response that shed light on the broader context which expose the claims and drama for being what they are: anecdotal "evidence" by very few developers. i think TB "investigation" answers two of the three main concerns:

1) Steam refunds are being abused by the user base.
TB shown that the sample size and period examined are both too small to extract any meaningful data. its not his opinion, its a fact. the system is still fresh out of the oven so naturally people will use it more, the sale data is of too little sample size.

2) Steam refunds reduce sales.
This claim is illogical and a borderline fraud because the graphs that were shown lacked crucial information and context.
First, because the reduction of sales of "Beyond Gravity" was actually the result of the game going out of a sale that was promoted by valve so the sales numbers after the refunds system took place were actually the normal figures.

Second, because the developer neglected to mention that devs can only see Refunds, Chargebacks as steam calls it, only by downloading an CSV file, so you can't even see the refunds on the graphs! if people had abused the system for buying and then instantly getting a refund, you would have actually seen a rise in sales on the graphs, not a reduction (This also address the graph by puppy games, which btw, since it shown a graph without a Y axis and a bigger time frame, it can be completely disregarded).

Last but not least, since the developer could see where the refunds came from, or rather, how much money is being refunded for each unit, he could have shown which of the 13 refunds were actually for games bought in the last 3 days or ones from before, such as, ones from the sale that took place just a couple of days before. you can't calculate 13/18, because the 18 units were bought in the last 3 days and the 13 refunds were for games that could have been bought during the last 6 months. even disregarding this lack of information for the context it should provide, then looking at this whole thing from a purely monetary perspective: the refunds could have all been from a deep sale price of 0.99$ and the bought units were bought for 4.99$. in terms of net revenue, it could very well be that he got more money than he normally would have for the same time period!.

TB video is important not because he is famous, but because he actually present the whole situation in a bigger context.

Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708

Now they revealed that their reduction of sales was actually due to the end of a coupon scheme and not because of the refunds!
Also, they maintain they got a 55% refund rate, although still neglecting to mention the refunds are from a 6 months range and from possibly 90% price reduction while the sales are just from the last week or so, so their refund rate is far far lower. and they still didn't give a wider sample size for their normal priced sales so their claim of reduction in sales can still be disregarded.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:02:54 am by Vilanat »
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BurnedToast

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2015, 02:54:05 am »

Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708

I don't know if he's right or wrong, if he's got a good point or if he's just whining.

All I know is he is a condescending douche and I want him to fail because... seriously wtf. He's somehow arguing that he wants to sell less copies of his game because fans suck and he wants less of them? But he also somehow feels entitled to charging way more for his games because they are just that good despite the fact that around 50% of people like them so much they want refunds?

If I actually owned any puppygames games I'd try and get a refund out of spite. I wouldn't really, I'm not that petty of a person
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 03:08:17 am by BurnedToast »
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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2015, 04:00:46 am »

Posting to watch
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BigD145

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2015, 08:31:29 am »

Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708

Whole games as demo's. Gosh. How terrible that would be. Considering a $10 breakfast is fairly normal to this person, they've obviously not been in a situation shared by tens of millions of people. $10 for a game can be a lot of money for some people. "But BigD, they own a computer which costs hundreds of dollars." No. Some use library computers or friends' computers or get hand-me-downs or dumpster dive. Some people live on $5 or less a day for food. $10 is a lot of money. It's skipping breakfast ten days straight. "Maybe they shouldn't buy vidya gaems." Yes, no recreation for poor people. Wouldn't want them having fun or anything.
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Boltgun

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2015, 09:17:54 am »

Whole games as demo's. Gosh. How terrible that would be. Considering a $10 breakfast is fairly normal to this person, they've obviously not been in a situation shared by tens of millions of people. $10 for a game can be a lot of money for some people. "But BigD, they own a computer which costs hundreds of dollars." No. Some use library computers or friends' computers or get hand-me-downs or dumpster dive. Some people live on $5 or less a day for food. $10 is a lot of money. It's skipping breakfast ten days straight. "Maybe they shouldn't buy vidya gaems." Yes, no recreation for poor people. Wouldn't want them having fun or anything.

The people who do not have the money were pirating before, no big deal. You can't make everything free because some people does not have the means but that's not the point here.

Otherwise his conclusions are spot on. After much thoughts, it's a typhoon in a glass of water. Digital good have never been consumer friendly and it's good to build trust sometimes, even if obviously the goal is to get more money into Steam because you are not refunded on your bank account. Android has been doing that and it's the most solid market today.

They're still wrong about the value of the playerbase but moving on...

It might actually increase sales in the long term. There has been free weekends who boosted sales once the trial period was out, and this was only available on a few select titles. Now the barrier to install the game and launch it is lower so there will be more installs, and in those installs perhaps 75% will become final.

Let's remember that we all have a huge backlog of game we never played on Steam now and one day in the future we might not even feel the need to buy more games we know we're not going to play. Hell, who even buy games outside of sales or bundles now? How long  will it last?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 09:28:01 am by Boltgun »
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Sheb

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Re: Steam refund program!
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2015, 09:20:56 am »

Hey, people pay a lot by hour to go to the cinema. If someone wants to charge 15$ for 2hours of game, and gets people to pay for that, good for them.
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