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Author Topic: Wardens of Teros  (Read 10816 times)

Araph

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Wardens of Teros
« on: July 16, 2015, 01:18:47 am »


Like a bad entry in a Hollywood franchise, Warden refuses to die. It really is it's own unkillable B-movie monster, in a sense. That being said, I've been thinking about it and I'm gonna JUST DO IT NOT LET MY DREAMS BE DREAMS take another shot at it from scratch, hopefully avoiding the pitfalls I fell into last time I tried this.

Where gonna make this hapen.

Overview
For those of you who weren't around for the ride last time, Warden is a multiplayer survival-horror game that pits one player (controlling a demon) against all the other players (controlling the titular Wardens). Each game is over when either all of the Wardens are dead or all of the demonic altars have been consecrated. However, each time an altar is successfully restored, the demon shifts into a new, completely different form. In order to survive, the Wardens will need to understand what they're up against before it can catch them off guard.

Objectives
The demon's goal is to kill all of the Wardens. The Wardens' goal is to cleanse the evil altars scattered across each map.



Spoiler: The Wardens (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: The Demon (click to show/hide)



Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Wondering why I'm still bashing my head up against this game? Let me know! Sorry if the descriptions are worded poorly in this post; it's late and I'm kinda braindead right now.

In the near future, I'll be posting concept art, dumb lore bullshit, and monster ideas as I finish the flowchart. Then... Then the real work begins.



Just a Reminder
Previous version's IndieDB page

Warden was not a small project. It was not an idle pursuit. For the sake of my blood pressure, check out the videos on the IndieDB page and maybe even download the demo to see the state the game was in when it was abandoned before posting anything in the vein of 'think about your limitations/try making a smaller game first'. If you don't, the rustling of my jimmies will echo throughout eternity.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 01:23:27 pm by Araph »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2015, 06:56:58 pm »

Good idea. If you're working by yourself, it might be a bit difficult to do with "good" graphics, though.
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Araph

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2015, 08:06:44 pm »

The graphics weren't the best last time around, but I've gotten somewhat better. We'll have to see how it turns out, I guess.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2015, 08:51:51 pm »

Well those graphics are downright wonderful if you're working by yourself.

I like the contrast between the Wardens and the Demon.

Instead of multiple demon types, why not only have one demon type with a variety of Runes and Minions to use that shift randomly each time it dies?
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flame99

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2015, 10:49:26 pm »

WOO! It's back!

Nothing really to be said as far as suggestions go from me, but out of curiosity, what engine are you building it in?

Also, I'm sort-of-not-really-passable as far as programming goes; if you need an extra pair of hands on the project, I'm willing to work pro-bono.
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PrimusRibbus

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2015, 01:10:57 am »

Hey man, it's pretty obvious you're a talented dude and after watching these threads for a number of years I wanted to throw some constructive criticism your way. You've cancelled Warden (and a game similar to Warden) 3-4 times fairly abruptly, and prematurely thrown up a Kickstarter and Greenlight. That's not an unusual thing and I was super guilty of it myself for many years, so I'm not faulting you for it.

Take some time, step back from coding, and create a software development plan. Figure out your project's scope based not on what you think you can do, but on what you have done in the past. If you burnout or life gets in the way after a certain amount of time into a project, define a scope that can be completed in 80% of that time (this can be tough to estimate, so err on the side of conservative scope). Be honest with yourself: No excuses for why it didn't get done, and no saying that there's no possible way the project can get derailed this time. Plan for the worst case scenario.

Your game plan currently covers how the game will work, but it doesn't cover how you will work on the game. Create milestones for yourself, and break them down so that you can meet them regularly. Don't be afraid to work on features and meet milestones in such a way that your game doesn't feel like a game at all sometimes; coding rock-solid foundations will help you more in the long run than making a game fun as soon as possible. Put extra time into making your features as generic and modular as possible; when you're making a feature, keep asking yourself how hard it would be to rip it out entirely (an ideal scenario is to have a part that can be commented out completely and not have the game fail fatally, even if ripping it out means the game isn't fun for the time-being... helps a lot to prevent coding yourself into a corner). Easier said than done, I know...

It's better to complete something that shows a fraction of your vision than to let your dreams get so big that they overwhelm the entire project. If you've coded in a well documented, generic, and modular way, you can use that tech demo as a spring board later. There's zero shame in building a simple but complete v1.0 and adding to it later.

Absolute best of luck to you! Project management is genuinely the hardest part of software development. You've got great ideas and the skills to realize them, so keep on rocking it!  :)
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Aseaheru

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2015, 05:38:58 am »

 Well, I know theres interest in it, as I occasionally get hits on old videos for warden asking things. Mostly about servers.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2015, 11:31:08 am »

Hey man, it's pretty obvious you're a talented dude and after watching these threads for a number of years I wanted to throw some constructive criticism your way. You've cancelled Warden (and a game similar to Warden) 3-4 times fairly abruptly, and prematurely thrown up a Kickstarter and Greenlight. That's not an unusual thing and I was super guilty of it myself for many years, so I'm not faulting you for it.

Take some time, step back from coding, and create a software development plan. Figure out your project's scope based not on what you think you can do, but on what you have done in the past. If you burnout or life gets in the way after a certain amount of time into a project, define a scope that can be completed in 80% of that time (this can be tough to estimate, so err on the side of conservative scope). Be honest with yourself: No excuses for why it didn't get done, and no saying that there's no possible way the project can get derailed this time. Plan for the worst case scenario.

Your game plan currently covers how the game will work, but it doesn't cover how you will work on the game. Create milestones for yourself, and break them down so that you can meet them regularly. Don't be afraid to work on features and meet milestones in such a way that your game doesn't feel like a game at all sometimes; coding rock-solid foundations will help you more in the long run than making a game fun as soon as possible. Put extra time into making your features as generic and modular as possible; when you're making a feature, keep asking yourself how hard it would be to rip it out entirely (an ideal scenario is to have a part that can be commented out completely and not have the game fail fatally, even if ripping it out means the game isn't fun for the time-being... helps a lot to prevent coding yourself into a corner). Easier said than done, I know...

It's better to complete something that shows a fraction of your vision than to let your dreams get so big that they overwhelm the entire project. If you've coded in a well documented, generic, and modular way, you can use that tech demo as a spring board later. There's zero shame in building a simple but complete v1.0 and adding to it later.

Absolute best of luck to you! Project management is genuinely the hardest part of software development. You've got great ideas and the skills to realize them, so keep on rocking it!  :)

I gotta agree with all of this.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2015, 11:50:12 am »

Hey man, it's pretty obvious you're a talented dude and after watching these threads for a number of years I wanted to throw some constructive criticism your way. You've cancelled Warden (and a game similar to Warden) 3-4 times fairly abruptly, and prematurely thrown up a Kickstarter and Greenlight. That's not an unusual thing and I was super guilty of it myself for many years, so I'm not faulting you for it.

Take some time, step back from coding, and create a software development plan. Figure out your project's scope based not on what you think you can do, but on what you have done in the past. If you burnout or life gets in the way after a certain amount of time into a project, define a scope that can be completed in 80% of that time (this can be tough to estimate, so err on the side of conservative scope). Be honest with yourself: No excuses for why it didn't get done, and no saying that there's no possible way the project can get derailed this time. Plan for the worst case scenario.

Your game plan currently covers how the game will work, but it doesn't cover how you will work on the game. Create milestones for yourself, and break them down so that you can meet them regularly. Don't be afraid to work on features and meet milestones in such a way that your game doesn't feel like a game at all sometimes; coding rock-solid foundations will help you more in the long run than making a game fun as soon as possible. Put extra time into making your features as generic and modular as possible; when you're making a feature, keep asking yourself how hard it would be to rip it out entirely (an ideal scenario is to have a part that can be commented out completely and not have the game fail fatally, even if ripping it out means the game isn't fun for the time-being... helps a lot to prevent coding yourself into a corner). Easier said than done, I know...

It's better to complete something that shows a fraction of your vision than to let your dreams get so big that they overwhelm the entire project. If you've coded in a well documented, generic, and modular way, you can use that tech demo as a spring board later. There's zero shame in building a simple but complete v1.0 and adding to it later.

Absolute best of luck to you! Project management is genuinely the hardest part of software development. You've got great ideas and the skills to realize them, so keep on rocking it!  :)

I gotta agree with all of this.
Seems good.

Demon powers summary:
Two phases: preparation and assault
During Preparation, has Runes and Minions
During Assault, has Powers and Minions
Minions can be plain summoned during assault, but placed in soul crystals that can be triggered(or broken by the Wardens) during preparation.
Minions aren't like mooks, more like tougher things which take a few hits before going down
Powers are things like Fire Spray, Electric Burst, Flash Step, Slime Mortar, Illusion Duplicate.
Runes are traps planted ahead of time like Barrier, Explosion, Withering, Slickness, and Teleportis.
Runes and Minions can be selected before game start, more powerful Runes cost more and can be used less times.
Minions are similar, but each minion is only useable once.
Powers are randomly assigned each assault phase.
When the demon dies, it loses one of its lives(out of 3)
(Note that when a Warden reaches 0 hit points, unconsciousness(not death) follows and the demon must finish the Warden off before the other Wardens revive him)
Just suggestions.
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Araph

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2015, 01:46:54 pm »

Nothing really to be said as far as suggestions go from me, but out of curiosity, what engine are you building it in?

Also, I'm sort-of-not-really-passable as far as programming goes; if you need an extra pair of hands on the project, I'm willing to work pro-bono.

Unity 5. And I appreciate the offer, but right now the best thing to help would be suggestions and looking for pitfalls!

Take some time, step back from coding, and create a software development plan.

That's what I'm doing. That's the whole point of that flowchart.

Figure out your project's scope based not on what you think you can do, but on what you have done in the past.

Everything in the list has been done before. Wardens and demons, networking, the level editor; it was all in the game already. I'm redoing it because, now that I know where it didn't work well, I can go back and do it better.

Your game plan currently covers how the game will work, but it doesn't cover how you will work on the game. Create milestones for yourself, and break them down so that you can meet them regularly.

I have milestones. On a small scale, every item in that flowchart is a milestone. Every branch is a larger milestone. Every section is an even larger milestone.

If you burnout or life gets in the way after a certain amount of time into a project, define a scope that can be completed in 80% of that time (this can be tough to estimate, so err on the side of conservative scope).

Last time I spent around eight months before the game was remotely playable. I spent another eight months working on it after that. The game didn't reach v1.0 because I felt the gameplay's ideas weren't solid enough, but it wasn't an idle project that was given up after a month out of boredom.

Absolute best of luck to you! Project management is genuinely the hardest part of software development. You've got great ideas and the skills to realize them, so keep on rocking it!  :)

Thanks!

Demon powers summary:
Two phases: preparation and assault
During Preparation, has Runes and Minions
During Assault, has Powers and Minions
Minions can be plain summoned during assault, but placed in soul crystals that can be triggered(or broken by the Wardens) during preparation.
Minions aren't like mooks, more like tougher things which take a few hits before going down
Powers are things like Fire Spray, Electric Burst, Flash Step, Slime Mortar, Illusion Duplicate.
Runes are traps planted ahead of time like Barrier, Explosion, Withering, Slickness, and Teleportis.
Runes and Minions can be selected before game start, more powerful Runes cost more and can be used less times.
Minions are similar, but each minion is only useable once.
Powers are randomly assigned each assault phase.
When the demon dies, it loses one of its lives(out of 3)
(Note that when a Warden reaches 0 hit points, unconsciousness(not death) follows and the demon must finish the Warden off before the other Wardens revive him)
Just suggestions.

...I appreciate the suggestions, but that sounds like an entirely different (but very similar) game.

Shapeshifting demons and altars are guaranteed to be in the game. Changing that would alter the core premise of the game, which is not going to happen. Most of what you're saying is pointlessly reshuffling and restating ideas (minions are practically the same as demon forms, just with slightly different mechanics; runes are literally the same as the demon's sigils; losing lives is the same as an altar being destroyed).



If anybody has doubts about my ability to remake Warden, I suggest you take a look at the old game's IndieDB page and watch two videos: Shapeshifting Hellbeasts and You and the level editor demonstration.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2015, 04:54:12 pm »

Hm. Okay. If demon forms are going to be a thing, however, I think you might need a lot of them.

Note: A fourth class for the Wardens might be a good idea. Perhaps a Cleric with melee specialty and healing abilities?
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My Name is Immaterial

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2015, 07:42:35 pm »

PT read this later.

Araph

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2015, 05:00:02 pm »

...I think you might need a lot of them.

I completely agree on that point. Because I was planning on having the demo map have three altars (meaning only three forms could be shown in a single round), I figured three was a good number to start at. That said, I'm not set in stone on the current three (although I have a couple reasons I chose these ones that I'll explain in more detail later on), so if you have any ideas, let me know!

Perhaps a Cleric with melee specialty and healing abilities?

In one of the previous versions (after specific classes were added, but before they were whittled down to the current three) there was a healer class. I decided to take it out because I felt that giving the Wardens a reliable way to heal in between run-ins with the demon would take away too much tension, turning it into even more of an action game rather than a horror game.

It's not much, but I've been tossing around designs for the different classes and these are the current choices (definitely going to make a few tweaks as time goes on, though). I settled on a red and brown color scheme: red because of the whole 'fire magic' thing they've got going on and brown because I want them to be able to blend in fairly well (the original description of the game was 'a deadly game of hide-and-seek with the devil'). I'd like to make hiding a viable strategy, but only if you know which form you're up against. The most prominent example is how the Banshee can't really see you in the shadows if you're staying still, but there would need to be some way to hide from the Mimic and Hound. I think for the Hound, having scent trails only show up after a certain amount of time has passed would create a window of opportunity to hide (as long as the Wardens keep moving), but I'm still not sure about the Mimic. In theory, creating overlapping scent tracks by repeatedly backtracking would also be useful for throwing off the Hound, but that'd be up to the players.

The Vindicator, being the tank who needs to keep the demon's attention, is the only one with shiny metal armor, while the Abjurer has only a few metal buckles and the Seer has no specular highlights whatsoever. The Seer also has more muted reds and browns than the others. Once I get to the point of adding animations into the game, the different classes will have correspondingly different sound effects: the Vindicator will clank when he walks, jumps, and climbs, the Abjurer will have muffled cloth rustling, and the Seer will be practically silent.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2015, 06:01:49 pm »

In dungeons and dragons, mages have to prepare their spells and whatnot instead of infinite casting.

If you want to balance the Cleric and ramp up the horror feel, place limits on the usable magic(limited number of uses).

Do you intend to program light and darkness and whatnot, making torches, lanterns, and fire magic more valuable against the demon? (naturally I think the demon should have dark vision.)

Also... here's one demon idea: The Troll. Despite looking... trollish... the Troll compensates... er I'll just summarize the idea.
Troll like demon, large and strong.
Slow but effective in melee, has shockwaves. (can't jump very high)
Longer attack phase than normal, compensates by slowness.
Much faster and can jump higher in preparation phase. In the preparation phase the Troll is invisible, but can see further and should use that to its advantage.
The troll can choose when to come out of the preparation phase. If the timer is decremented.
To balance that the troll show up as a shimmer in light while in the preparation phase, making it possible to detect.
The troll can place Troll Oil in the preparation phase, which explodes when stepped on and either slows movement or makes the ground slippery.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 06:08:23 pm by FallacyofUrist »
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GentlemanRaptor

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Re: Wardens of Teros
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2015, 08:45:16 pm »

So this is a thing again. Great!
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