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Author Topic: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE  (Read 1204652 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7590 on: December 17, 2018, 01:57:16 pm »

I'm talking about the original research labs that upgraded into versions that would produce more of one or the other.  It was pointlessly micro intensive and it didn't matter because tech is a global resource and unlike the other global resources, you get no feedback when you run low.  So it was just... not rewarding or interesting.  There's little point to any tech modifiers that are local because they add up to either a lot of work for little effort, or forcing the player to do a bunch of mental math to achieve balanced research (which is broadly better than specialized because of how tech cost works).

I guess space deposits sort of matter, because in the extreme earlygame if you find 10 physics in neighboring systems that can be a huge spike (+33% I believe).  But again in the long term those are going to come out about average.  Ditto for the titanic lifeforms society research.

Edit: In edition to what Dunamisdeos said, if a starbase is in a system only it will collect from that system.  This doesn't really matter unless its within your homeworld's collection range, as all that trade is collected with no need for protection.  The trade collection range of a station is the number of trade hubs on it, so potentially 6 per starbase.  Also small ships are better for patrolling, hangars on starbases are really good (and protect at long range), and the max piracy value of a system is simply the amount of trade passing through it.  Finally, all pops produce trade value based on their social status (and possibly happiness?), so expect any populous world to become a trade hub eventually.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 02:02:25 pm by EnigmaticHat »
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Rolan7

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7591 on: December 17, 2018, 02:07:44 pm »

ninja'd but w/e
Are you clicking the new trade route mapmode?  It shows the actual routes.

Your capital starbase won't generate any piracy ever, and its collection radius seems to have priority over other starbases - EXCEPT in their systems!  If your capital is collecting from some core world, but you build a starbase in that core system, it'll take priority and start a potentially heavy (though short) trade route.  Anyway, I can't stress this enough, you generally want to fill your capital starbase with trade posts since each one increases that radius of free collection.

For protection, you want to stack hangers.  They provide twice as much protection as guns, and each weapon increases the *protection* range by one just like a trade post increases *collection* by one.  This is why I suggest dedicating starbases to protection OR collection, to maximize ranges on all.

For a system to be safe, you need to stack protection on it equal to the total trade value moving through it.  This means core worlds can require a lot of protection, since multiple distant trade routes might be meeting each other near your capital.  The solution is several overlapping hangar-starbases (preferably placed in systems which aren't generating trade, so they don't steal from the capital and contribute to the routes!).  Leaving or patrolling a few corvettes can also help, if the hot spot is small enough.  Generally though, I'd try not to produce too much trade in distant systems - minimize the need for protection.
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Telgin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7592 on: December 17, 2018, 02:21:46 pm »

Your capital starbase won't generate any piracy ever, and its collection radius seems to have priority over other starbases - EXCEPT in their systems!

This is the problem I'm having, I think.  I have two systems two jumps away from my home system with colonies, and I built trade posts there thinking they were necessary to collect the trade value from those worlds.  This ended up nullifying the collection from my home system star base, which I'm pretty sure has two trade modules, and ended up creating trade routes back to that system that converged in an unoccupied system, creating a huge amount of flowing trade and thus maximum piracy.

Kind of amusing to think that if I delete those star bases, the piracy will go away.  I'll have to test that when I get home.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7593 on: December 17, 2018, 02:24:38 pm »

In theory I think you could use trade protection fleets as sort of a "levy"; in wartime send them out and just accept the trade value loss.  In practice... AFAIK they only protect one system and I've always had somewhere else I'd rather put my ships.  If you do go that route corvettes are not only cheaper but provide more protection than larger hulls.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7594 on: December 17, 2018, 02:25:19 pm »

I'm talking about the original research labs that upgraded into versions that would produce more of one or the other.  It was pointlessly micro intensive and it didn't matter because tech is a global resource and unlike the other global resources, you get no feedback when you run low.  So it was just... not rewarding or interesting.  There's little point to any tech modifiers that are local because they add up to either a lot of work for little effort, or forcing the player to do a bunch of mental math to achieve balanced research (which is broadly better than specialized because of how tech cost works).

I guess space deposits sort of matter, because in the extreme earlygame if you find 10 physics in neighboring systems that can be a huge spike (+33% I believe).  But again in the long term those are going to come out about average.  Ditto for the titanic lifeforms society research.

Edit: In edition to what Dunamisdeos said, if a starbase is in a system only it will collect from that system.  This doesn't really matter unless its within your homeworld's collection range, as all that trade is collected with no need for protection.  The trade collection range of a station is the number of trade hubs on it, so potentially 6 per starbase.  Also small ships are better for patrolling, hangars on starbases are really good (and protect at long range), and the max piracy value of a system is simply the amount of trade passing through it.  Finally, all pops produce trade value based on their social status (and possibly happiness?), so expect any populous world to become a trade hub eventually.

gotcha. yeah, definitely not like that with the upgrade paths. more things that were like the buildings i mentioned, but a greater variety, and more tie-ins to research projects (like an actual zoo building with society research and amenity jobs that unlocks when you finish the specimen collection quest for example.)
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7595 on: December 17, 2018, 06:01:52 pm »

Yeah that's fair.  So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research.  Makes sense.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7596 on: December 17, 2018, 06:06:39 pm »

Okay. My new start with 'bigger colonies', 'planet view + 36 building slots' and 'crowded world' as UNE looks promising.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If this works out well I may do another try at a forum LP.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 06:11:17 pm by forsaken1111 »
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7597 on: December 17, 2018, 06:30:14 pm »

Okay. My new start with 'bigger colonies', 'planet view + 36 building slots' and 'crowded world' as UNE looks promising.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If this works out well I may do another try at a forum LP.

this is already looking a lot better than the normal UI. keep it up.
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Cruxador

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7598 on: December 17, 2018, 06:33:21 pm »

In theory I think you could use trade protection fleets as sort of a "levy"; in wartime send them out and just accept the trade value loss.  In practice... AFAIK they only protect one system and I've always had somewhere else I'd rather put my ships.  If you do go that route corvettes are not only cheaper but provide more protection than larger hulls.
I think corvettes are mostly better for combat as well.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7599 on: December 17, 2018, 06:34:18 pm »

Yeah that's fair.  So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research.  Makes sense.

ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)
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forsaken1111

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7600 on: December 17, 2018, 06:42:27 pm »

I'm actually thinking of making a mod full of 'side-grade' buildings that let you do stuff like that.

Like a food processing plant that also grants society research.

I'm also thinking of doing planetary decisions similar to the 'resort world' and 'penal world' that allow you to designate a world as a 'brain trust' for a science bonus and follow-on events that let you establish a research center dedicated to one of the science types.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 06:44:30 pm by forsaken1111 »
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Telgin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7601 on: December 17, 2018, 06:54:45 pm »

Yeah that's fair.  So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research.  Makes sense.

ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)

I like this idea a lot.  Meaningful choices there.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7602 on: December 17, 2018, 07:00:04 pm »

Yeah that's fair.  So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research.  Makes sense.

ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)

I like this idea a lot.  Meaningful choices there.

That's a really good idea, I agree. But then you'd have to rework quite a bit. As it is I can't really spare my alloy/consumer goods factories for anything extra, often quite late into the game.

To be fair society research has always had an extra bias, with things like observation posts and the like. I always justified it to myself by thinking about how they've sort of combined biological/societal/governmental concepts into a single tree. Naturally there are more sources of research income because of the diversity of "society" research. You'd almost have to create a 4th type of research to fully compensate.
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Orb

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7603 on: December 18, 2018, 01:06:15 am »

Physics is pretty light as well. I start running into repeatables before midgame crisis now.
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Telgin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #7604 on: December 18, 2018, 09:13:14 am »

Well, I had a victory screen upset last night, as much as that really matters.  I was beating the fallen empires by a few thousand points and the victory year was closing in, when suddenly... the butterfly people of the militant isolationists vassalized another fallen empire and added 12,000 points to their score.  Then they did it to another one!  Victory was stolen from me at the last moment.  :(

The only consolation is that the crisis finally triggered in 2480 and they can't actually win until it's over.  I'm tempted to let the Prethoryn Scourge eat them so I'll win anyway.

In seriousness though, I'm just happy to see the Scourge since this is my first time with them.  I'm not really sure what to expect, but I'd built my fleet up to counter the Contingency and I'm worried that a shield heavy fleet isn't going to fare well.  I've got about 600K fleet power with ~15 levels of repeatable military techs of every relevant kind, and the crisis difficulty is 2.5x.  I'm fairly sure I'll be okay, although the Scourge hit the galaxy in a spot where two hostile empires are currently preventing me from responding to it, so it might spread a lot before I can engage it, and unlike the Contingency, I'm led to believe that can make the Scourge substantially stronger.

Edit: I'm also unsure if I should bother with titans.  I left enough unused command limit in each fleet to add a titan, but my experience with the Contingency is that they don't last long enough to be worth it.  The Unbidden were a different story though, and I don't think I lost a single ship beating them back.  So... maybe they work for the Scourge?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 09:56:36 am by Telgin »
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