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[Deboche]

This is pretty standard propaganda stuff, which traditionally was called religion. All those guys who went to Iraq to "fight terrorism" and all the people back home who "support the troops". What would you call that if not indoctrination?

And this doesn't need to happen from a young age or do you think all German people are nazis by nature? Conditioning and propaganda do work quite well.

There will always be outliers of course but I wouldn't say that has to do with personality traits. There we would need to start the nature vs nurture discussion which probably wouldn't be very productive.

As for "more developed culture", you'd have to ask a historian or anthropologist. What I mean by it is, for example, the impact European countries had upon African and American "primitive" people and how much christian doctrine spread in those places as opposed to the impact it had on Chinese or Indian culture. Of course, in the end we all became nihilistic capitalists but this culture swap phenomenon is well documented.

[JesterHell696]

This is pretty standard propaganda stuff, which traditionally was called religion. All those guys who went to Iraq to "fight terrorism" and all the people back home who "support the troops". What would you call that if not indoctrination?

It is indoctrination but that stuff is all started during childhood with patriotism/nationalism that's drummed into children by their parents, the state and society at large and that's been apart of American culture since the cold war, the "fight terrorism" and "support the troops" are just fruits born from years of indoctrination of an entire nation and even then there have been people who've resisted the message resulting in outliers.

If the player wants to do that level of indoctrination it should take years or decades of effort and not be the result of simple "rehabilitation" program.

And this doesn't need to happen from a young age or do you think all German people are nazis by nature? Conditioning and propaganda do work quite well.

I think that Nazi Germany was more a mob frenzy type mentality then full on indoctrination and while the SS where indoctrinated I think the rest of them going along with it was a result of them being "whipped up" into frenzy, which isn't really indoctrination imho.

I do think that what made it possible in the first place was a part of human nature.

There will always be outliers of course but I wouldn't say that has to do with personality traits. There we would need to start the nature vs nurture discussion which probably wouldn't be very productive.

I'll give you the point in that nature vs nurture is something that is still discussed quite heatedly IRL and probably wouldn't help this discussion much, although I'm on the side of nature.

I think its important to remember that we're discussing DF and that in DF the line between nature and nurture is defined, there are natural traits (facets) that are attached to a creatures raw data  and nurtured traits (values) that are "learnt" from civilizations and are (currently) defined in the entity raw data, out of the nature traits [CLOSEMINDED], [DISDAIN_ADVICE] and looking though them [PERSEVERENCE] most definitely seem to me like they would play apart in any attempt by the player to change a creatures nurtured values, here's the possible level of those traits.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

CLOSEMINDED    
91-100    is completely closed-minded and never changes [his/her] mind after forming an initial idea
76-90    is intellectually stubborn, rarely changing [his/her] mind during a debate regardless of the merits
61-75    tends to be a bit stubborn in changing [his/her] mind about things
25-39    doesn't cling tightly to ideas and is open to changing [his/her] mind
10-24    often finds [him/her]self changing [his/her] mind to agree with somebody else
0-9    easily changes [his/her] mind and will generally go with the prevailing view on anything

DISDAIN_ADVICE    
91-100    disdains even the best advice of associates and family, relying strictly on [his/her] own counsel
76-90    dislikes receiving advice, preferring to keep [his/her] own counsel
61-75    has a tendency to go it alone, without considering the advice of others
25-39    tends to ask others for help with difficult decisions
10-24    relies on the advice of others during decision making
0-9    is unable to make decisions without a great deal of input from others

PERSEVERENCE
Conflicts with PERSEVERENCE    
91-100    is unbelievably stubborn and will stick with even the most futile action once [his/her] mind is made up
76-90    is very stubborn
61-75    is stubborn
25-39    has a noticeable lack of perseverence
10-24    doesn't stick with things if even minor difficulties arise
0-9    drops any activity at the slightest hint of difficulty or even the suggestion of effort being required

I personally think its obvious that these traits would have an effect, high level making it harder and low level making it easier and I'm sure if you go though all the trait you could find others that have an effect on the indoctrination process.

As for "more developed culture", you'd have to ask a historian or anthropologist. What I mean by it is, for example, the impact European countries had upon African and American "primitive" people and how much christian doctrine spread in those places as opposed to the impact it had on Chinese or Indian culture.

Personally I'd say that the long history possessed by China and India as well as their the written records of that history helped insulate their culture from being over taken by foreign cultures while the African and American "primitive" people did it almost completely by word of mouth and then when you add in the population difference...

Of course, in the end we all became nihilistic capitalists

You say that like its a bad thing.

but this culture swap phenomenon is well documented.

And? I never said that culture swap doesn't happen, what I did say that it effects on an individual are dependent on that individuals personality because stubborn people are less likely to accept the swap and are more likely to try and oppose, resist or stop it if at all possible.

[Deboche]

Sure yeah a mob frenzy that lasted decades, those Germans sure do get carried away. I don't think this is a very productive discussion, what Toady wills is what will matter in the end, as always.

[JesterHell696]

Sure yeah a mob frenzy that lasted decades, those Germans sure do get carried away. I don't think this is a very productive discussion, what Toady wills is what will matter in the end, as always.

Decades? Hitler got into power in 1932 and that lasted until 1945 so Nazi Germany lasted 13 years or just over a single decade and he only had 33 percent of the vote when he got in which is hardly a indoctrinated nation.

The frenzy lasted a few years true but that doesn't make it less of a frenzy, take the American war against terrorism for example, just after the 9,11 attacks there was a frenzied support for this war across almost all groups in America but even with its well established indoctrination program that has been running for decades support has declined slightly because the frenzy is over and its only the indoctrination program that keeps it going and the programs working full bore on keeping the support up.

I think you might believe that Hitlers Nazi regime was some kind of nationwide indoctrination success but Hitler was unable to secure the chancellorship with his own power gaining the seat though an agreement with the nationalist-conservatives, while the true extent of resistance to Nazi Germany is unknown there was resistance both from the beginning (read 1933) and later

I think you need to remember the banality of evil and that indoctrination is about getting people to believe what you want them to believe not just coercing them to obey state mandates.

So yeah I think it was a frenzy that kick-started a police state not a successful indoctrination of the German public as a whole but that's just me.



I will now drop the discussion because its off topic and the last time I did that the thread got locked so at the bare minimum lets agree to disagree.