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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress themed short story - game theory, altruism, Fable of the Bees  (Read 734 times)

b10548

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Has anyone here ever heard of the Fable of the Bees by the philosopher Bernard Mandeville? I haven't actually read it but I know what it's about. You should look it up. Well anyway, I basically wrote a short story that is the inverse of that famous tale (because I don't agree with Mandeville). And it is set in a dwarf fortress universe with antmen. It's got a corny humanistic gist, if you're into that.

We are all familiar with the trope "there is a society full of nice, rule-abiding people, but there is also one leach, one exploiter, one selfish prick to ruin it all for everyone". My story is basically the reverse of that. The idea is "What happens when a saint lives in a society of psychopaths?"

Here it is:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Servant Corps

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I like the story but it is very crony, and I would expect the victor faction to be a mix of psychos and alturists, rather than simply agreeing to be the mark every time and getting a posthumus award.

I think that the story is crony, but that is because the message is crony. Fable of the Bees is interesting because it advocates a unexpected chain of events: altursits convice psychos to stop being evil and accidentally cause the destruction of society. I would like a story with a mix of the Antmen and Bees, where neither the altursists or the psychos create a perfect society, but instead one that has realistic flaws and benefits.

Good job!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 09:01:36 am by Servant Corps »
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

b10548

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Thank you very much for the feedback!

The question that this probes of course is how do actual societies manage to overcome prisoners dilemmas in order to exist? In principle altruistic individuals should be outcompeted by selfish ones.

The idea in the story is that even if Mandeville is right and there is no real altruism, but society only exists and only manages to be successful because of people's self interest being bent toward the common good, what I would argue is that even in such a situation, someone who earnestly and genuinely cared about the common good would "outcompete" the selfish individuals because he wouldn't have to "fake" anything.

Imagine this: By pure "memetic evolution" a species of selfish people start forming into societies. At first they are governed entirely by strict rules, physical brutality, and hierarchies because those are the only things that can overcome individual selfishness. The societies with the best structure in this regard prosper more and outcompete the other ones, so over time the rules and structures and incentives of society become more and more efficient at making these selfish individuals behave cohesively. But eventually, once the "surveillance and incentives" are so good that it has become impossible to "cheat" the system, then at that point it would "pay" more to be genuinely altruistic in the first place, and so the protagonist of this story, who starts out as just a fluke, gets an inevitable reproductive advantage. And then love wins ofc :)

You might very well be right that there may be more to it than that though, and maybe in reality there would be an equilibrium between them rather than a takeover.
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Servant Corps

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There has been evolutionary computer simulations where you had altruists and selfish people interacting with each other. The end result is that the altruist individuals would end up outpopulating the selfish people, but the selfish people don't go extinct...they just make up a small minority.

The reason this happens is that altruism benefits everyone, including selfish people. Selfish people would thrive in a society of altruists, as they can receive benefits from alturists without needing to contribute back. Selfish people would prefer not to interact with each other because they'll be competing against each other for resources...a rather needless competition when you can just leech off the efforts of the alturists.

On an individual level, alturists would lose to selfish people. On a societal level, since altruism benefits society as a whole, the altruist trait would just get passed down generation upon generation, and altruism eventually spreads to make up the majority of the population. But since the selfish trait can still be useful for survival, it will not be "bred" out of existence. Selfish individuals still live, and will routinely taking advantage of the hapless altruists.

If you are still interested in this behavior, I would suggest finding these evolutionary computer simulations and tinker with them to find new insights. I think most humans have some selfish habits and some altruist habits, and trying to find the 'correct' balance between selfish and altruistic behaviors could be interesting.
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b10548

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Yes, and that's very interesting, thanks!
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