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Author Topic: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.  (Read 6802 times)

vjmdhzgr

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I think the solution to this supposed tantrum spiral problem is to simply make not all murders cause people to be vengeful, and make it much rarer for it to make people vengeful against an entire species. I'm not sure what implied that it would happen 100% of the time anyway.
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darkandstar

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I didn't know i needed this until now, but i do. All those stories people have, no imagine how it would be when creatures had expanded emotions and feelings and etc. Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Evil One

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I think the solution to this supposed tantrum spiral problem is to simply make not all murders cause people to be vengeful, and make it much rarer for it to make people vengeful against an entire species. I'm not sure what implied that it would happen 100% of the time anyway.

Well, this is Dwarf Fortress, where barring the intervention of waterfalls, the death of a kitten can cause a fortress ending tantrum spiral.

Besides which, vengefulness would be by personality as opposed to a probability based (gamey) system, if we can have a fortress ending tantrum spiral with less than 100 dorfs, what makes you think the same couldn't happened with multiple civilizations?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 04:00:41 am by Evil One »
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Dwarf!  Indeed, a devious delight fond of drink and industry deceived as both do-gooder and devil by the delusions of deities.  This demander, no daft demeanor, is a driving force of the deadly diocese, now disappointed, delirious from goblin deception.  However, this delicious derangement of a demolished diamond stands determined!

JesterHell696

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The simplest solution to world wide tantrum spirals I can think of is have it all influenced by a individuals personality traits and I can think of a couple of ways personality traits that could change how they decided to act to this type of stimuli.


The value a dwarf places in the Family, Friendship and Loyalty beliefs would determine how upset they are by the death its self, after all someone who have a low value in these things is unlikely to be so upset as to seek vengeance or swear eternal hate against the perpetrator let alone the whole race.

Then the value a dwarf places in the Law, Self Control, Harmony and Peace beliefs would help determine what actions they choose to take, in a sort of reverse of before someone who has a high value in these things is probably going to seek ether legal recourse or just try and forgive them for the sake of peace and harmony.

There's also a dwarfs score in Hate Propensity, Anger Propensity, Violent, Single Minded and Vengeful to consider, all of which should affect what actions they take as its obvious that someone who isn't vengeful isn't going to seek vengeance just as someone who isn't single minded won't go on a personal crusade of vengeance.


When all of these traits are used together to decide a dwarfs course of action you can offsets risk of a global tantrum spiral by having the requirements for extreme actions be the possession of more extreme personality trait values.

So if all the different beliefs and facets are included in the decision making process then extreme reactions like self exile to seek revenge should only occur if the individual has a high value in family, friendship and loyalty while also having a high values in single minded and vengeful and to develop a hate for the whole race and go on an eternal crusade of vengeance would have the further requirements of a high value in hate propensity and low values in peace and harmony, this would still allowing fringe cases to exist without whole civilizations being involved and its only if the fringe case happens to be the monarch that you should get wars and massive battles being set off.


I your interested the full list of personality traits it is here http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

Enchiridion

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Don't forget that some people could have a situation where their friend dies in vengeance and they are so moved that they seek to end the vengeance of others, thus perhaps being a counterbalance to the whole chaos tantrum hate spiral situation.
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AceSV

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Also, would the feeling of vengeance actually be strong enough to make a dwarf leave his home and go looking for the perpetrator?  Even if he does go on his quest, would he ever find the goblin?  The dwarf might starve along the way or get eaten by yetis and boogeymen, or even get killed by the goblin he's trying to take revenge on.  There are a lot of ways in which the situation would not get out of hand. 

True, there are a number of things which could prevent the tantrum, but that'd only work if the two enemies are far enough apart, if their towns/civilizations are close together it could cause all kinds of problems.

But as pointed out, if the dwarf who wants revenge is a military commander, local ruler or bandit leader, he might have enough resources at his disposal to actually go to war for the sake of revenge.  But there you have a realistic history. 

Well, that wouldn't be so bad, it's the whole friends, family, ETC getting dragged in with each victim which holds the greatest potential for problems.


Well feuding clans are a completely real and historical thing.  How would we have kung-fu movies without quests for vengeance?  If you want to decide how to keep feuds from happening, think about what keeps real humans from feuding. 

In the real world, going on a quest for vengeance costs money.  If you need to work to feed your family, questing is not an option, unless you're so consumed with vengeance that you don't care if your family starves.  Social distance also prevents vengeance.  Are you really a good enough friend with someone that you'd walk to the next town and risk death or dismemberment to avenge his murderer?  A person should have a very short list of people that they'd seek vengeance for, some people might have nobody that they care that much about.  If you're weak or unathletic and your beloved was killed by a gang of swoll trolls, you'd have no hope of victory.  If enough people also feel like avenging the stiff or have their own grudges against the murderer, you might be able to organize a posse to go after them, but if you're all alone in the world, you're just stuck with your own anguish. 

And sometimes you just can't get vengeance.  I went on a quest in Adventure mode to find the daughter of one of my comrades who had been kidnapped years ago.  We stormed the Dark Pits and questioned everybody we could find, but no one recognized the name of the daughter or the goblin who kidnapped her.  Our targets might have been in the Dark Fortress itself, but I couldn't find it and we probably would have lost our lives if we tried to enter (or at least our sanity due to FPS death). 

There should probably be some kind of adventurousness stat that determines if a character will travel for vengeance.  An unadventurous dwarf might take revenge if he sees the murderer walking down the street, but wouldn't dream of setting foot outside the fortress. 
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Bumber

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Social distance also prevents vengeance.  Are you really a good enough friend with someone that you'd walk to the next town and risk death or dismemberment to avenge his murderer?  A person should have a very short list of people that they'd seek vengeance for, some people might have nobody that they care that much about.  If you're weak or unathletic and your beloved was killed by a gang of swoll trolls, you'd have no hope of victory.
Depends on culture. Honor might demand vengeance or you'd be shunned. In addition, dwarves seem to have very close families. And if you can't do it yourself, remember that there are plenty of adventurers ready to prove themselves (or have Fun trying.)
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

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AceSV

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Social distance also prevents vengeance.  Are you really a good enough friend with someone that you'd walk to the next town and risk death or dismemberment to avenge his murderer?  A person should have a very short list of people that they'd seek vengeance for, some people might have nobody that they care that much about.  If you're weak or unathletic and your beloved was killed by a gang of swoll trolls, you'd have no hope of victory.
Depends on culture. Honor might demand vengeance or you'd be shunned. In addition, dwarves seem to have very close families. And if you can't do it yourself, remember that there are plenty of adventurers ready to prove themselves (or have Fun trying.)

I don't know, the dwarves in my fortresses all seem to have a really hard time finding love, let alone establishing families.  I think a lot of dwarves wouldn't have anybody around to avenge their deaths. 

But maybe the bottom line here is that we need to run some simulations and see what actually happens. 
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could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.

Calidovi

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Social distance also prevents vengeance.  Are you really a good enough friend with someone that you'd walk to the next town and risk death or dismemberment to avenge his murderer?  A person should have a very short list of people that they'd seek vengeance for, some people might have nobody that they care that much about.  If you're weak or unathletic and your beloved was killed by a gang of swoll trolls, you'd have no hope of victory.
Depends on culture. Honor might demand vengeance or you'd be shunned. In addition, dwarves seem to have very close families. And if you can't do it yourself, remember that there are plenty of adventurers ready to prove themselves (or have Fun trying.)

I don't know, the dwarves in my fortresses all seem to have a really hard time finding love, let alone establishing families.  I think a lot of dwarves wouldn't have anybody around to avenge their deaths. 

But maybe the bottom line here is that we need to run some simulations and see what actually happens.

For this argument, the bottom line is that the existing social system needs to be reworked. Perhaps fixing relationships and putting this system upon it will reap greater !!FUN!! than just trying to work around the existing relationship system.
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Dirst

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Dwarves seem to be the sort who'd be more or less content to do their craft with occasional bursts of rabble-rousing in the dining hall, though "more or less content" doesn't mean "happy."  For vanilla dwarves, variety can be an extra tool for combatting the various types of stress that befall a fortress.

In a multi-racial fort, those humans and elves might have coveted talents but for the love of Armok those whiners are hard to keep productive.
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Heretic

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Re: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 12:20:30 pm »

I can't find this suggestion in the vote list. That shall i do?
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Enchiridion

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Re: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 05:20:06 pm »

I can't find this suggestion in the vote list. That shall i do?

cus I havent organized it yet and checked with the list yet. Im currently a bit busy... but im also incredibly lazy. :P
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 05:31:57 pm by Enchiridion »
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Heretic

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Re: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2015, 01:36:09 am »

I don't thinkk you really lazy -- i have seen two your suggestion and they are really huge amounts of intresting text... Moreover, i have seen good answer to my questions(Questions have arisen when I reading) before i asked it... So I think you spent a lot of time to it...
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Enchiridion

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Re: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2015, 01:03:25 pm »

I don't thinkk you really lazy -- i have seen two your suggestion and they are really huge amounts of intresting text... Moreover, i have seen good answer to my questions(Questions have arisen when I reading) before i asked it... So I think you spent a lot of time to it...

Thanks, that means a lot. I put it up for voting. It's called "Emotions, desires and love should be a driving force behind the actions of entities in the world."

I have a lot of inspiration but I have incredibly low willpower irl. I just get bursts of desire to do something and then long periods of self loathing where nothing gets done and I hate myself for not getting anything done. I don't know how to help it. Those complex threads mostly are just me sitting down one day and realizing that I wana do this cool thing and writing about it.
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JesterHell696

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Re: [EMOTION AND DESIRE UPDATE] - The magic of Love, hate, and self-sacrifice.
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2015, 11:46:12 pm »

I put it up for voting. It's called "Emotions, desires and love should be a driving force behind the actions of entities in the world."

Personally I think it should be based off of personality traits you just need to add vengeance as another "goal" and you would have the foundation of what you want, personally I think they should be able to have more then one goal and develop a list of active, completed, abandoned and failed goals over the course of their life which could in turn affect personality traits like confidence, pride, assertiveness ect.

I think that Toady put all these traits in the game to give motivation to not just your fortress dwarfs but all the historical figures as well, so I think a more accurate name for what you want would be "Beliefs, Facets and Goals should be a driving force behind the actions of entities in the world." which I feel is one of the long-term development goals anyway.

here's the full list of personality traits if your interested.

Beliefs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Facets
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Goals
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek
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