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Author Topic: More depictions of gods  (Read 21041 times)

Batgirl1

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #120 on: November 24, 2015, 07:45:17 pm »

Hadn't considered ascensions/deifications, but since demigods were brought up, does anyone think "gods knocking up a (creature/person)" would or could become a thing?  It might tie in to the half-breeds thread from way back.  Could also lead to some hilarity, too; maybe a sea god impregnates a snail, leading to an immortal snail who is demigod of inbound tides or something.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2015, 03:31:40 am »

I realize that my text snippet doesn't include a value for how likely Art & Vandalism are to be Friends (if they don't happen to be Precluded or identical), but you get the idea.
If graffiti were a thing, more likely than you think.
That's the beauty of having the friend/enemyship of various sphere pairs saved in an Init file: If you think something should be changed, just change it, you don't need to convince anyone. You could even fine-tune the specs to promote tailor-made pantheons in this way: If you want to re-create Westeros's Faith of the Seven, you can do that. If you want to re-create Christianity's "mono"theism of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, Satan, and Mary, you can do that too.


Hadn't considered ascensions/deifications, but since demigods were brought up, does anyone think "gods knocking up a (creature/person)" would or could become a thing?  It might tie in to the half-breeds thread from way back.  Could also lead to some hilarity, too; maybe a sea god impregnates a snail, leading to an immortal snail who is demigod of inbound tides or something.
Gods wouldn't have the least bit of interest in nonsentient beings, as only intelligent creatures can worship. It would be like a human trying to love a rhododendron; it cannot love back. Now, snailmen might be a possibility, but even then the god must consider if the potential return (increased spiritual energy from the snailmen's worship because "He has chosen one of US!", and the chance that a demigod child might grow to become an ally of its divine parent) is worth the risk (spiritual energy expended on "exalting" the chosen mate, and losing a sphere to any demigod child).


Friendship between gods could probably be handled like friendship between mortals; even if gods are not given full blown personalities, their domains suggest certain personality traits and personal values.
I'm going to ignore personality for now (if Toady wants to implement a divine version of that, let him) and let the spheres themselves define relationships. In my snippet from a hypothetical Init file, I gave each sphere relationship two numbers: One defining the odds of those 2 spheres coexisting, and one defining the odds that both spheres would be assigned to the same deity. There should also have been a third number, defining the desire felt for Sphere B by a god who already has Sphere A. This desire would do two things:
1) Gods could trade spheres. There would be greater demand for high, Parent-level spheres (big, important stuff like Nature, Fortresses, and Death) than for Child-level spheres (little things like Song, Wind, and Nightmares), but a god would be willing to trade a Parent sphere that he didn't care about for a Child sphere that he desired greatly. This would have the effect of related spheres pooling together (a god with Sun would try to collect Day, Light, and Sky, etc.), so the Pantheon Weirdness modifier should be able to mitigate, or even reverse, this trend. This sphere-trading would mostly happen soon after worldgen, and thus would likely affect Fort mode very little--a god could be added or subtracted during the fort's lifetime, causing some sphere reshuffling as the pantheon adjusts, but that's only natural.
b) Gods who are opposed (according to each civ's randomly-generated Preclude list) at Parent levels but also possess Child spheres that are mutual allies, that provoke desire, would feel enmity toward each other: A god of Fire & Rumors would see the god of Water & Fame as a rival, and seek to take the sphere of Fame from him--and vice versa. Conversely, gods whose highest-level spheres desired each other would likely be friends,  whether their lower-tier spheres got along or not. A god of Pregnancy & Music could be buddies with a god of Family and Silence just fine. Gods whose highest-level spheres are mutually attracted could get married, even if those same spheres were Precluded from each other, thus allowing for real yin/yang bombs.

Spheres should probably have 2 or more Parent spheres, whenever possible, as that would make child gods much more satisfyingly appropriate: If the gods of Death and the Past were to marry, it would be very handy if the sphere of Tombs existed, and was rightly coded to be subordinate to both the Past and Death spheres, so a new demigod born of their union could have a portfolio very fitting to his parents.

In addition to potentially being killed, gods could starve to death: Suppose that the god of the Past, having given up the sphere of Tombs to his child, has only the spheres of History and Memory to accessorize his main sphere. One of his High Priests ascends to demigod status and is awarded the History sphere, and then the god of Wisdom and Scholarship steals the Memory sphere. Our god of the Past is left with nothing but . . . the Past, and what is there for the Past to do? And who's going to worship a god who does nothing? He must either wither & die from lack of spiritual energy (his remaining sphere might be inherited by his child), steal a sphere from somebody else (unlikely, if he's weak), or emigrate to some other pantheon, there to supplant or (more likely) merge with their deity of the Past.

It may strike you as odd, or even wrong, that the pantheons of different civilizations could interact directly, even when the civilizations himself had no idea of each other's existence. The Aztec & Assyrian gods never met, did they? But those gods were invented by humans--the DF gods were created as brethren by Armok himself, and very likely knew each other quite well. So I picture Godland as a scattered group of Godville hamlets where, occasionally, the more aggressive gods could venture from one village to another, steal a sphere, or rape, abduct, or evenkill another god. Also to be considered is a civilization's extinction: When their last stronghold falls, currently all of their gods seem to just vanish into the aether. Why die, when for the cost of a sphere or two, you could buy your way into a new home? This is also a good way to introduce religious schisms & converts: I have to say, if I were a dwarf and had to choose between a foreign god of fortresses named "Castle Bastionshields the Defended Barricade", and my own familiar god of fortresses named "Glove", I know which one *I* would rather worship. Then again, if Castle's last Mountainhome fell to invaders, and Glove's cities are still doing just fine, that would reflect on their relative competence as a god of fortresses, and should be taken into account by worshipers thinking of converting.

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cochramd

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2015, 08:20:50 am »

I realize that my text snippet doesn't include a value for how likely Art & Vandalism are to be Friends (if they don't happen to be Precluded or identical), but you get the idea.
If graffiti were a thing, more likely than you think.
That's the beauty of having the friend/enemyship of various sphere pairs saved in an Init file: If you think something should be changed, just change it, you don't need to convince anyone. You could even fine-tune the specs to promote tailor-made pantheons in this way: If you want to re-create Westeros's Faith of the Seven, you can do that. If you want to re-create Christianity's "mono"theism of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, Satan, and Mary, you can do that too.
Not what I was getting at; I was just saying that there are many details about the world and society that can determine the relationships of the gods. For another example, just consider how using the classical elements of the Greeks would suggest very different relationships than using those of the Chinese. You are right, though; if someone creates a mod where graffiti is a thing, they need to be able to redefine the relationships of the gods of art and vandalism.

I suppose a sphere-based system could work for relationships, but I'd like to see it in action before making any definitive judgments. Also, giving the gods personality traits and personal values would make way for their seduction of mortals.

Quote
Hadn't considered ascensions/deifications, but since demigods were brought up, does anyone think "gods knocking up a (creature/person)" would or could become a thing?  It might tie in to the half-breeds thread from way back.  Could also lead to some hilarity, too; maybe a sea god impregnates a snail, leading to an immortal snail who is demigod of inbound tides or something.
Gods wouldn't have the least bit of interest in nonsentient beings, as only intelligent creatures can worship. It would be like a human trying to love a rhododendron; it cannot love back. Now, snailmen might be a possibility, but even then the god must consider if the potential return (increased spiritual energy from the snailmen's worship because "He has chosen one of US!", and the chance that a demigod child might grow to become an ally of its divine parent) is worth the risk (spiritual energy expended on "exalting" the chosen mate, and losing a sphere to any demigod child).
I haven't read up on every mythology in the world, but in Greek and Polynesian myth demi-gods run the spectrum from exceptional specimens to superhumans and are generally not worshipped. Can someone remind we why we're talking about them like they'll typically be minor gods with worshippers in DF?
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Batgirl1

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2015, 08:52:12 am »

As far as gods not being interested in nonsentients, mythology is rife with gods and horses getting together.  Ancient Greece had horses begotten by the wind gods, IIRC, and then there's Loki from the Norse who became mother of Sleipnir. Mythology is weird, you guys.
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Dirst

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2015, 10:35:12 am »

Gods wouldn't have the least bit of interest in nonsentient beings, as only intelligent creatures can worship. It would be like a human trying to love a rhododendron; it cannot love back.
You would think that, but you would be wrong.

Forget mythology... people are weird.
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cochramd

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2015, 11:58:23 am »

Gods wouldn't have the least bit of interest in nonsentient beings, as only intelligent creatures can worship. It would be like a human trying to love a rhododendron; it cannot love back.
You would think that, but you would be wrong.

Forget mythology... people are weird.
And that's not even getting into the people who fall in love with things that they know damned well don't even exist.
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Bumber

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2015, 05:55:52 pm »

And that's not even getting into the people who fall in love with things that they know damned well don't even exist.
Like... um... Democracy! Zing...?

(Damn, though I might have had something good there for a minute.)
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SixOfSpades

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #127 on: November 26, 2015, 04:10:04 pm »

I was just saying that there are many details about the world and society that can determine the relationships of the gods.
Very true, but the problem will be giving the game things that can be procedurally generated. The computer won't be able to grasp concepts like "graffiti can be Art or Vandalism, depending on who's looking at it" unless we specifically tell it how to approximate that relationship, and I have no idea how that would work, nor how how a god would feel about it, nor how many such special relationships would have to be written into the code.

Quote
Also, giving the gods personality traits and personal values would make way for their seduction of mortals.
Yes, I hadn't considered that. It's also true that the gods would be more interesting if they had actual personalities, although it would be pretty bizarre to see, for instance, a ruthless and unforgiving god of Consolation, or a god of Law who "finds the idea of laws abhorrent". Should personality traits determine desired spheres, or vice versa? Or should they not influence each other at all? And should the Pantheon Weirdness affect this part?

Quote
Can someone remind we why we're talking about [demigods] like they'll typically be minor gods with worshippers in DF?
Well, demigods could be very handy, from the parent god's point of view. If they're at least half mortal, then they'll probably spend the majority of their time on earth, where their very existence (and the ability to perform small miracles related to their sphere) will strengthen the faith of those around them, and some of that faith will flow upstream to the parent/patron, at zero cost to him. When the demigod dies (assuming half-gods will have life expectancies), the god most likely to claim his dropped sphere back up will probably be the god who donated it in the first place. If, on the other hand, the demigod's ancestry is wholly divine, then it will most likely be an ally of one if not both parents, strengthening the family unit & making all members more resistant to theft & attacks from other gods.


As far as gods not being interested in nonsentients, mythology is rife with gods and horses getting together.
Don't forget that those who idolize gods will most likely try to emulate those gods as role models. Dwarves don't even have sex with their own lovers until they marry, it's pretty much unthinkable that they'd go for bestiality. One must assume that their deities would be similarly straitlaced as well, as far as sex is concerned.


I've thought of another wrinkle in the religion Init file, where each sphere lists its % chance of occurring at all, and also its place in the Parent/Child sphere hierarchy. For example,
Quote
SPHERE_POISON[3:6]
     SPHERE_DEATH[100:45]
     SPHERE_BLIGHT[65:25]
     SPHERE_DEPRAVITY[75:40]
     SPHERE_LIES[90:40]
     SPHERE_MURDER[90:45]
     SPHERE_SUICIDE[40:15]
     SPHERE_FOOD[95:-40]
     SPHERE_DRINK[100:-40]
Here, a civilization would have a 3% chance of getting a god of Poison, and the Poison sphere itself would stand on Tier 6 (out of 7) on the scale of importance, second from the bottom. This would eliminate the need for an explicit Parent/Child relationship tree: The fact that Poison is so strongly attracted to Murder and Death groups them in the same family, and the fact that Poison is tier 6, Murder is tier 4, and Death is tier 2 (or thereabouts) makes it pretty clear that each sphere is a "child" of the next.

I am less clear on what to do about spheres invoking other spheres, particularly when it's a rare, low-tier sphere calling for a much more common & powerful one. I mean, it seems perfectly natural that a civilization with a god of Poison would also worship a god of Death, but when you have many small gods that have Death as a parent, the chance that a given civilization would have a god of Death approaches 100%. Not that every dwarf civ having a Death god would necessarily be a bad thing, but it does make the various civilizations less flavorful and distinct from one another. It also messes with the occurrence chance listed on the main Sphere callout: For example, if the file's main entry for SPHERE_DEATH specifically stated that there would be a 10% chance of each civilization having a Death god . . . but then 9 other spheres each stated that, if they were picked, there would be a 10% chance of having a Death god, then the first value would go out the window, because 10 separate attempts at a 10% chance comes out to be a lot higher than 10% (by my calculations, it's 65.3%).
So maybe this would have to be worked out some other way.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 04:32:00 pm by SixOfSpades »
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #128 on: November 26, 2015, 04:14:47 pm »

Definitely spheres should have an option for blacklisted personality traits.  But that should be an option, not a mandate.
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nothingSpecial

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #129 on: November 27, 2015, 01:44:00 pm »

I'm not sure if I should post it in this thread or start a new one, but my idea at least tangentially tied with the thread.

Basically, I suggest dividing the gods as they are and gods as they worshiped.

Gods themselves are basically spheres that have personality. The personality is proceduraly generated on worldgen and is tied to the sphere, but not strictly. These gods are the ones that can make a pact with demons, curse temple defilers, give secrets to mortals and whatever godly actions will come in next releases of DF.

The pantheons are roughly the way the civilized creatures see the gods. Roughly because
  • not all gods are presented in pantheon (according to entities' preferences)
  • some gods can be in fact not gods, but that I'll cover later
  • the spheres that are associated with gods are depended on the entity's symbol making (i.e. deity of mountains can be seen by dwarfs as goddess of mountains and metal)
  • some traits are associated with god the same way as related spheres are (like the mentioned goddess of mountains and metal is often depicted as female dwarf with hammer and mountain goat and cave spider and whatever dwarfs think when they hear the words "mountain" and "metal" )
Then after the start of worldgen and during history all this things are subjects to change.

First of all, newborn creatures are getting their knowledge of gods from temple, priests, family, friends etc., temples and priests being the main source of such knowledge.
Second - this knowledge is imperfect, and the new temple can bring changes to the particular god depiction.
Third - priests have their own scholarship links, and new knowledge about gods can be introduced the way similar to both planned for next release scholarship and art.
Fourth - titans, escaped demon, monarchs that were influential enough, vampires and what not can become objects of worship, have their temples and underwent the same changes in depiction.
Fifth - from time to time gods can send revelations to creatures to affect them and through them to affect their (and other gods') depictions.


If image of god becomes much different from the original deity, it can become unlinked with the entity's god. Unlinked and false gods are existing only in books-temples-engravings-songs and all this civilization-created stuff and cannot curse anyone.

Maybe civilization can create new god from scratch without any basis.
Maybe also false or unlinked god can transform into something appropriate enough to be linked to any real deity. Maybe even two real deities can become linked to one deity in some civilization.

With time the pantheons can change drastically.

Also the real gods can have their own histories, relationships, deaths and births.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2015, 08:05:03 am »

I'm not sure if I should post it in this thread or start a new one, but my idea at least tangentially tied with the thread.

Basically, I suggest dividing the gods as they are and gods as they worshiped.

Gods themselves are basically spheres that have personality. The personality is proceduraly generated on worldgen and is tied to the sphere, but not strictly. These gods are the ones that can make a pact with demons, curse temple defilers, give secrets to mortals and whatever godly actions will come in next releases of DF.

What if the goblins are right and all gods are false?  What if all the curses have nothing to do with gods at all but are simply magically based? 

Actually why would real gods and imaginery gods coexist in a fantasy universe anyway.  The standard for believability is basically competative, your own god has to be able to do all the things that the other gods can do or nobody believes in it.  There is also the issue of magic, if magic exists then it calls in question the whole gods thing since people are far less pursuaded by 'miracles' in such a world as that is a core part of existance that does not have anything to do with gods.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2015, 09:13:15 am »

Actually why would real gods and imaginery gods coexist in a fantasy universe anyway. 
That's basically how the Dragonlance series starts out, isn't it? Sure, once the real Gods got their act together people quickly forgot about the fake ones.
A similar thing could easily occur in DF history. Lets say that, for example, during a Godly scrap a thousand years ago the pantheon was left without a God of justice. Yes, one solution is for the local hydra to step in claiming the position. That already happens. But it's also not too far-fetched to imagine a group of power hungry priests invent a justice God and and dictate the 'word of God' to the peasants. A thousand years later, who can tell which Gods are real and which are imaginary?
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nothingSpecial

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #132 on: November 28, 2015, 09:20:27 am »

What if the goblins are right and all gods are false?  What if all the curses have nothing to do with gods at all but are simply magically based? 
That, in fact, should be the possibility. Maybe the slider in worldgen, at least parameter in advanced worldgen - how much the setting of generating world is mythical.

Actually why would real gods and imaginery gods coexist in a fantasy universe anyway.  The standard for believability is basically competative, your own god has to be able to do all the things that the other gods can do or nobody believes in it.  There is also the issue of magic, if magic exists then it calls in question the whole gods thing since people are far less pursuaded by 'miracles' in such a world as that is a core part of existance that does not have anything to do with gods.
First of all, most unreal god would be the real god (or godlike beings, or persons who impersonated gods) after some time and some information obstacles. Second - to allow the civilization make mistakes in their recognition of gods - and maybe to allow another reason for gods to send curses, who knows.

But yeah, there should be some checks for cults of unreal gods (or real but lazy gods who haven't shown themselves for a long time in the world of mortals) to die out eventually, and there should be possibility for mages to challenge gods and to claim their deeds as magic ones. Maybe - with the similar to "Age of Myths - Age of Legends - Golden Age" progression.

But basically I want to see the misunderstanding between gods and civilizations, and maybe some heresies, schisms, religious wars etc etc, in the world where gods have their own stakes.

That's basically how the Dragonlance series starts out, isn't it? Sure, once the real Gods got their act together people quickly forgot about the fake ones.
A similar thing could easily occur in DF history. Lets say that, for example, during a Godly scrap a thousand years ago the pantheon was left without a God of justice. Yes, one solution is for the local hydra to step in claiming the position. That already happens. But it's also not too far-fetched to imagine a group of power hungry priests invent a justice God and and dictate the 'word of God' to the peasants. A thousand years later, who can tell which Gods are real and which are imaginary?
Yeah, and this too.

Also priests, mages and leading dynasty can make a cabal creating and supporting the fake god for making their power ethernal.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2015, 02:37:05 am »

I suggest dividing the gods as they are and gods as they worshiped. . . Gods themselves are basically spheres that have personality. . . The pantheons are roughly the way the civilized creatures see the gods.
A variation on this idea that makes a lot of sense is that each world has only one set of gods--instead of every dwarf civ having its own god of fortresses, there is only 1, and each civ perceives & worships the deity differently. If a given civ regards a given sphere as being unimportant, they simply don't worship it, and it does not appear in their pantheon. A very sound idea in theory, but one that, in practice, tends to lead to a theology that is either hopelessly tangled or completely dull. Setting false gods aside for now, worshippers will know if a priest/god does or does not have control over a certain sphere, based on whether or not they can perform miracles, spells, and other rituals that demonstrate magical power over that sphere. So the dwarves know which of their gods own which spheres.
Civ A has a god of Fire and Volcanoes, who has no power whatsoever over the spheres of Rain, Sun, and Sky.
In Civ B, however, the god of Volcanoes also has the sphere of Earth, while the sphere of Fire is held by the Sun god, a different deity altogether.
And in Civ C, the god of Earth and Caverns is distinct from the god of the Sun and Sky, and the deities of Fire and Volcanoes are two more completely separate gods.
The chance that the spheres of any one god would line up perfectly with that of another is quite small, so the idea of any continuous-across-civs identity (of which each civ sees only an incomplete picture) with a fixed set of spheres fails as well.
The only alternatives to this are
A: All known gods are merely facets of the ONE god, pretending to be a set of pantheons & cloaked in the tired old Christian doctrine of being "all things to all people", or
B: Each god controls one and ONLY one sphere, and (worshipped) gods with 2 or more spheres are merely the result of 2 or more (real) gods collaborating, and their temporary partnership is perceived as a single entity.

IMHO, none of these ideas sound as flavorful, or as fun, as actual pantheons of gods with different personalities, relationships, and spheres of influence.
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nothingSpecial

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2015, 04:37:47 am »

Well, gods really shouldn't have clear linkage between their actions and their spheres. Zeus was a god of thunder, and thunder has nothing to do with becoming lustful enemies.

So it can be like this: there are several gods for the whole world (but maybe not "one sphere = one god", let them compete themselves, and let other gods born within the pantheon), that have their motives according to sphere (make more mountains! praise those who live in mountains! curse those who disturb mountains!), relationships (help fellow god, mess with god you find funny, clash with godly grudge) and personality (praise the ambitious, curse the cowards... wait, that's too straightforward. Praise the industrious and magma-loving, curse the cats!).

There also list of godly actions:
- send an inspiration (this can cover both necromancers' secrets and strange moods; we can subdivide)
- send an angel (yeah, THAT kind of an angel) upon those who infuriated you
- posses creature (not only civilized)
- bring up a demon
- curse a mortal (and maybe not for temple)
- send a vision (this is new interaction to help gods affect their image in pantheons).

And there is nothing especially mountainy or deathy or romancy in actions themselves - only the motives of actions are depending on god in question.

This way deity can lie for spheres that he or she controls. And in fact the civilized creatures can attribute all the miracles to other god, or attribute the unrelated sphere to god in question.

I suppose if some deity is uninterested in mortals, lots of other gods can act on that god's behalf. Or god that is stealthy enough can try to mess with other gods' actions. And of course it is possible for two deities mad at each others and interested in some, for instance, war between mortals, to send their angels for both armies so that megabeasts ending kicking butts of each others.

Than it would be hilarious if previously mentioned goddess of mountains and metals want to disrupt the oceans' god's plans and choose to posses animal, say nasty things to mortal and introduce as oceans' god, yet the animal she chooses is mountain goat because of her preferences.
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