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[King_of_Baboons]

With multi-race forts and civs coming up in the next update I had a strange idea in my mind:

What if people from different races and civs could influence our dwarves?

Now let's say that,by either massive imprisonment and conversion or by spontaneous immigration,your fort now just so happens to have goblins as official citizens.However,since they only have been exposed to the dwarven costumes for a couple months,they still secretly believe and worship their demon gods from their past civ and still practice many rituals and dances.

After a while the goblins start convincing the dwarves that donīt believe in the dwarven religion to join their religion and start creating some sort of evil cult inside the fort which then leads to some chaotic !!FUN TIMES!!

The idea not only applies to goblins.Elves could potentially turn dorfs into tree hugging hippies that make organized attacks to dwarf lumberjacks!

So what do you think?Do you think that maybe our new inhabitants could cause this sort of problems?   

[cdru]

Then,the game should allow player to exile citizens.

[GoblinCookie]

So what do you think?Do you think that maybe our new inhabitants could cause this sort of problems?

You rather overestimate the influence that foreign outsiders would have.  The outsiders are the weaker of the two parties, it is rather more likely they will change to conform to the insiders than the other way around.  Kind of what you are talking about is the weaker party compelling the stronger party to become more like itself.

[Sirbug]

Then,the game should allow player to exile citizens.

Isn't this what magma is for?

[Shonai_Dweller]

To a limited extent this will be possible eventually. Visiting goblin philosophers could, theoretically, write volumes of exciting books on the benefits of murder as a way of life. These would be read by the Dwarves causing their ethics to alter over time.

In the next update, ethics won't actually be effected, only values (I forget the exact distinction, but Dwarves won't end up eating their dead just yet). But that's the general direction Toady seems to want influence to go.

[Bumber]

In the next update, ethics won't actually be effected, only values (I forget the exact distinction, but Dwarves won't end up eating their dead just yet).

Values are a numeric scale of 100, while ethics are ACCEPTABLE / SHUN / etc. Makes sense that value changes would be easier to work with.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I imagine these kinds of changes won't effect everyone at once of course, but just certain individuals and (when they're implemented) splinter factions within your fort.

That small group of Deep Dwarves who never quite fit in to fortress life. Spending all their time listening to the Great Goblin Philosopher's lectures, studying his writings and forming their own debate groups on the merits of murdering at will and the most artistic way to create a gruesome structure...

[GoblinCookie]

I imagine these kinds of changes won't effect everyone at once of course, but just certain individuals and (when they're implemented) splinter factions within your fort.

That small group of Deep Dwarves who never quite fit in to fortress life. Spending all their time listening to the Great Goblin Philosopher's lectures, studying his writings and forming their own debate groups on the merits of murdering at will and the most artistic way to create a gruesome structure...

In this case we need some way to imprison the Great Goblin Philosopher or discredit him in some way.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I imagine these kinds of changes won't effect everyone at once of course, but just certain individuals and (when they're implemented) splinter factions within your fort.

That small group of Deep Dwarves who never quite fit in to fortress life. Spending all their time listening to the Great Goblin Philosopher's lectures, studying his writings and forming their own debate groups on the merits of murdering at will and the most artistic way to create a gruesome structure...

In this case we need some way to imprison the Great Goblin Philosopher or discredit him in some way.

It depends on how Dwarven laws regard freedom of speech I suppose. Attracting a Great Dwarven Philosopher could counter him, spreading rumours could work.
Of course under current mechanics, players could just drop a ton of rock on him any time they want so there'd need to be disadvantages to doing so. Unhappy cult dwarves, unhappy Dwarves who had the need to regularly argue with the Great Goblin Philosopher, unhappy Dwarves who feel goblin minorities aren't being represented well enough etc.

I wonder how far keeping secrets from the player could go in the future?

[GoblinCookie]

It depends on how Dwarven laws regard freedom of speech I suppose. Attracting a Great Dwarven Philosopher could counter him, spreading rumours could work.
Of course under current mechanics, players could just drop a ton of rock on him any time they want so there'd need to be disadvantages to doing so. Unhappy cult dwarves, unhappy Dwarves who had the need to regularly argue with the Great Goblin Philosopher, unhappy Dwarves who feel goblin minorities aren't being represented well enough etc.

I wonder how far keeping secrets from the player could go in the future?

The other issue is what would cause a dwarf civ to make free speech legal or illegal and how much freedom do we have as a site government either to prohibit the Great Goblin Philosopher or to allow him to operate.  LAW in my view should work to reduce the player's scope of freedom, a society with high [LAW] places legal restriction on what the player can autonomously do about the problem, one with low LAW leaves more things to the discretion of the site government.

[POWER] on the other hand is the value that promotes censorship.  The more a society values power, the more it sees the Great Goblin Philosopher as a problem that can be solved by making an example of him rather than a problem that will solve itself.   The two values intersect as following.

High [LAW] + High [POWER] = You have to punish the Great Goblin Philosopher.
Low [LAW] + High [POWER] = It is up to you to deal with the Great Goblin Philosopher how you wish.
High [LAW] + Low [POWER] = Freedom of speech is legally protected and you cannot punish the Great Goblin Philosopher.
Low [LAW] + Low [POWER] = You can punish the Great Goblin Philosopher but it will make you unpopular.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I'd like to see dwarves dealing with the carrying out of the law themselves with the player just providing the infrastructure. Don't bother with the justice system at all and eventually you'll get random anarchy. Install a control freak as baron and his guards will be handing out beatings to anyone wandering into the restricted section of the library.

Randomised laws (within ethical bounds) of the civilization, and how much influence the capital has over outposts would ensure that it's not the same formula for success everytime.

So as a player you'd have to keep an eye on which groups - guilds, factions, cults, foreign philosophers are influencing the common dwarves, and decide on what balance of justice system would best keep the fortress moving in a direction you're comfortable with. Then leave it up to the Dwarves (and hope the mayor isn't a vampire spy).

[GoblinCookie]

I'd like to see dwarves dealing with the carrying out of the law themselves with the player just providing the infrastructure. Don't bother with the justice system at all and eventually you'll get random anarchy. Install a control freak as baron and his guards will be handing out beatings to anyone wandering into the restricted section of the library.

Randomised laws (within ethical bounds) of the civilization, and how much influence the capital has over outposts would ensure that it's not the same formula for success everytime.

So as a player you'd have to keep an eye on which groups - guilds, factions, cults, foreign philosophers are influencing the common dwarves, and decide on what balance of justice system would best keep the fortress moving in a direction you're comfortable with. Then leave it up to the Dwarves (and hope the mayor isn't a vampire spy).

The more [LAW] your civilization believes in, the more automatic everything is.  The less [LAW] your civilization believes in, the more you have to handle things directly, making the rules up as you go along.