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Author Topic: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done  (Read 33159 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2015, 02:30:43 pm »

I don't particularly mind. Feel free to take a look over my nation too :P

I've actually sent in my pretender but I'm not too happy with it.
Well, Frumple wasn't too attached to his advice but I'll see what I can say.

You have flying troops and nonflying troops.  This is normally amazing because you can use flying raiders but still have good armies.  Your fliers are... odd, though.  Your only fliers are ranged, and your only flying commander is overpriced, has no paths, and can't bless.  You'll still want to use this, but... eh.  You'll be able to raid out PD up to a point, not much else you can do.  Still worth considering because flying raiders win wars.  I would consider getting a good combat mage (something like: Wind Guide> Lightning Strikex4) and putting winged boots on him.  Your fomorian troops are better than mine, dual wielding overcomes the main weakness of giants (few attacks per square) and shield+javelin is always efficient on giants (javelin isn't any more expensive despite dealing vastly improved damage).  Wind Guide will make javelins more threatening.

You have access to the underwater.  Nationgen doesn't generate UW nations, which makes this automatically awesome.

Your mages are odd as well, but also the best thing since sliced bread.  The disciple of ruin's paths are a trap.  Low blood is often worse than no blood and his other stuff is randoms that will be too rare to justify researching for (except to construct things).  However, he's amazing from an econ perspective.  He's your most efficient researcher AND he's drain-immune, and his paths will also be a key part of your site searching.  Only sad thing is that he's cap-only so drain might still be a bad idea.  I'd do it anyway, just don't take misfortune 2 or 3.  Everything else... is invulnerable Fomorians, do the math.  Also find that one guide on thug equipment.

Your immediate research goals are:
Construction 4 (thug gear + winged boots)
Alteration 4 (thug buffs + Wind Guide)
Enchantment 4 (Cloud Trapeze + Horde of Skeletons)

Any order for those could be justified.  You'll also want Evocation 4 + 5 for lightning magic, but your mages are costly and frankly better used on things other than combat magic (same goes for Horde of Skeletons, great spell, but your casters aren't the cheapest).  Still, you can't win with thugs alone, would be my usual advice to people who don't have invulnerable fomorians.

If you take any bless at all it should be a thug bless to be combo'd with a Shroud of the Battle Saint.  Also if you have access to a Pheonix pretender, you could give him your flying archers and have him cast Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide while auto-blessing them for slightly improved precision.

Edit: actually your access to cloud trapeze isn't great and Horde of Skeletons is enchantment 5, so enchantment is perhaps not an immediate research goal
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 02:46:20 pm by EnigmaticHat »
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Elfeater

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2015, 02:51:22 pm »

Could you do one for Turland?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2015, 03:06:35 pm »

It feels weird telling this much to my opponents.  Then again I guess if I gave hints to Fhaumdar's player I should be willing to give hints to anyone (invulnerable fomorians WTF).

Well, either way I have to go to work now so the hints will have to wait.
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2015, 03:09:51 pm »

Eehh, you reminded me of a few things and lead me to what I ended up doing, EH. Just didn't think I'd get enough out of an N bless for the cost of it, heh.

Pretender's submitted, by the by. Good luck, erryone. Not that something like half of you need it :P
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IWishIWereSarah

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2015, 03:22:34 pm »

I don't think Fhaumdar's Invulnerable fomorian matter that much.
Yeah, there have invul 20, but they also have crappy stats, so they won't be really effective as thugs. I'd loev to have invul 20 on a fomorian with F3 to cast some fire blast, but the casters don't have really god paths either.
I think I'd prefer them without the invulnerability, as they would be cheaper, personally (though it will be useful when they get hit by a stray arrow).
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BFEL

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2015, 04:09:22 pm »

I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
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AlStar

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2015, 05:28:14 pm »

My god's in, although I don't know that I'll have any real chance - I'm having real problems even just against the AI in my test games.

IWishIWereSarah

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2015, 05:57:28 pm »

Aren't your 18 protection soldiers useful in the expansion phase ?
I mean, nearly nobody can hurt them, right ?
I wouldn't know how to play your sacred troops, but a light bless (E4 or E4A4 to get access to an elemental staff) can boost you mages just what they need. Also, the shape changing on the cap-only mages trigger when they get hurt, right ?
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2015, 06:09:47 pm »

My die is cast as well... Two One to go? Elfeater and EnigmaticHat, I believe?

Oh, Il Palazzo? Should you chose to use your Nightmares, feel free to give some feedback. I made those things over a year ago and haven't heard one peep back about them. They're closely modeled on indy nightmares, but I'm quite suspicious they're possibly severely overpriced.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 07:43:38 pm by E. Albright »
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IWishIWereSarah

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The nightmares (riders) are weird. They have only 11 HP, which is low for cavalry, I think, but at least they cost only 25r. And with a defense of 23, and fear5 on a unit (same as Demon knight which cost 5 blood slaves and a nice mage turn)
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E. Albright

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Yes, but... in keeping with the indy nightmares, encumbrance 15. This makes them incredibly fragile...
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2015, 07:08:40 pm »

Aren't your 18 protection soldiers useful in the expansion phase ?
I mean, nearly nobody can hurt them, right ?
You'd think, but you have to remember that protection is probably the worst defensive stat in the game. Especially without something else to back it up, which hobina's critters lack. Even with 18 protection, that 6+ enc, terrible defense (or merely sup-par on the heavy spearmen), and human HP means that they're still going to get damaged fairly often, and when they do, it's got good odds to wound or just plain kill. Add in the high resource cost and map move 1 and... they're actually kind of bad for expansion. They can manage, but they're not much (if at all) better at it than Hobina's other units. You'll lose some nearly every province and probably rack up wounds like no one's business.

With a bit of testing, I can say full prot 18 armies are doing notably worse than the vans I'm having to rely on for expansion (even accounting for the gold difference), despite the good variation I've got access to being stuck with short swords. I'm sure the formorians are just kind of laughing jovially at both of us :V

... with hobina, I'd probably be trying to mass up arbalists with plain spearmen (or caelian ones) screens instead of sending out those prot 18s to ablate off indies. Gold price is the same, but you'll be able to squeeze out more guys with the lower resource costs, and the arbs will hopefully be able to start building up. Which might not be a bad idea at all considering there's heavily armored formorians on the map, too.

---

Bonus points on those riders, though. They apparently turn into sacred mechanical men when they drop, haha! So they're fragile, but they turn into something somewhat... well, equally fragile, but in different ways, with 0 encumbrance and reinvig.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #132 on: September 15, 2015, 12:06:41 am »

Could you do one for Turland?
Alright, this might be obvious, but you either get up a blood economy or die.

Not to put too fine a point on it, your non-blood paths are god awful.  Your cap only recruit is, honestly, you could play optimally and never recruit him.  His price is vastly inflated by death recruit, and you CANNOT take death with such a blood focused nation.  He's too expensive for pure blood spells, and B/D gives you only a single spell worth mentioning, which is Curse of Blood.  That's a fine spell and all, but its research 7 and costs 77 blood slaves and its better spammed than cast once.  So its a distant option.

You could look at this as a disadvantage or you could look at it as an advantage: you literally only need to research one school, which is of course blood.  You'll want to splash construction for boosters eventually, but no rush.  It might seem tempting to go there for the sanguine dousing rods but they aren't good enough on their own to justify rushing construction 4.  Your only hope of standing against the other factions is going to be blood magic, which means you need to quickly research up to ideally level 5 and also get a blood economy up in parallel (no waiting for you).  This guide is mandatory reading. Your only native crosspaths are earth and nature, but those are great.  Earth will get you Demon Knights; these are great and absolutely worth however many slaves and mage turns you can spare.  You'll also get Rain of Toads, spam it at forted provinces till the unrest goes up so high they can't recruit.  You could cast nothing but those two spells and still do better than most dominions players.  You'll also get the pure blood spells, which includes some nice anti-thug stuff; in particular Blood Burst is low research cost and pretty much irresistible (don't trust the description you need B2 to cast it).  Later on you'll have exclusive access to the unique summons, for this purpose you'll ideally want a pretender with B4F2 to cast Bind Arch Devil which will break you into astral and get you some badass SC chassis.  You'll also want growth and ideally order for the money, since you'll be saccing your population and I wouldn't trust having many provinces given your competition.

Both your blood mages are useful; the Dying Necrolyte is your bread and butter and recruiting a lot of them will give you access to plenty of B2, N1, and E2 randoms.  Don't be afraid to empower blood; it might be worth it to empower the same mage twice or even three times to if they'll give you an important crosspath (although probably not).  You'll need to use the armor of thorns to get Rain of Toads up in a practical manner, that means a source of nature gems and construction 4.

You have access to thugging, but not thugging like the other nations have.  What you have is low cost, low return thugging for raiding.  If you want that kind of thug to do anything against an army you'll want to mass them and have them join another one of your armies.  For some reason you ALSO have invulnerable mages, in this case ambidextrous mini-giants.  They're cheap enough to make that pretty damn badass but their paths are useless and their morale and defense skill are cripplingly bad.  What I'd do is take the priest version, give them a flesh eater axe + whip of command (leadership over 120 gives awe), and then have them self bless for, at the very least, a minor water bless.  You need a source of fear to work with the awe; either use a helm of fear, or send them in with some demon knights.  That's fear+awe+invulnerable+berserking+23 health+whatever your bless is for 70 gold, 5 blood slaves, 5 nature gems, and whatever you spent to get the fear.  Don't be afraid to throw more than one of these at a province.  Also please test them in SP, its kind of a weird design (although I think it will be really good).

You need to find a dump for your ridiculous number of death gems.  I've got nothing.  A million black bows?  A million banefire crossbows?  Totally redundant horror helms (demon knights get fear 5)?  I'd consider telling any dangerous neighbors that if they haven't attacked you by year 2 you'll give them 20+ death gems.  Or maybe trade them for earth/nature gems.

Your national troops are uninspiring.  Your sacreds are too risky to invest in.  Someone WILL find a way to kill them on the cheap.  You've got a great deal on precision 11 longbows, and they'll stay decent even once you've transitioned to demons.  Sadly even if you take a fire pretender it won't be worth the research cost of getting Flaming Arrows.  I'd focus on those guys, get a cheap wall of spearmen, and use diplomacy, threats, or straight up bribery to stay safe till you get your blood economy up.
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You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

BFEL

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #133 on: September 15, 2015, 12:40:33 am »

I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
ERHRM :P
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
« Reply #134 on: September 15, 2015, 01:16:40 am »

I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
ERHRM :P
Fine  ::)

Your hawk riders are a trap.  They just cost too much.  You need to mass a lot of them to reliably beat PD and if your enemy ambushes you even once you'll lose hundreds of gold.

You... WHY DO YOU HAVE AN INVULNERABLE MAGE TOO?!?!  Ok, whatever, yours is a hoburg.  Your special properties is that pretty much everyone of your mages can join a communion (both blood and astral can do it although the only time I scripted Sabbath Master the mage didn't listen for some reason) and they're all priest mages.  This means you want earth on your pretender.  I'd say your ideal bless would be N9E9 or N9E4.  Blood is, as I said before, not worth it.  Bless all your mages, communion them up and then basically cast whatever you want because there's no way you're generating enough fatigue to kill the slaves (note: you probably could if you tried).  You have the ability to do a holy communion, communion up to H5, use Divine Channeling to boost all your priests, and then use Banishment to WRECK anyone who comes at you with an undead army.

You've got a self blessing 50 gold fomorian.  Thug time.  Yet again.  In this case its pretty simple: Frost brand + vine shield/charcoal shield/shield of gleaming gold.  Script bless + attack.  Send them to provinces you don't expect to have armies.  Done.

You've got good, early access to underwater and you've got water paths.  If you can get one of you water mages UW early you should be able to lock out, or at least seriously threaten, any one else who wants to go do there.  At construction 2 you can forge an A2 amulet of breathing to do it.  This is good because you've got nice expansion and there's a practical limit to how far you can expand on land without starting a war.

I'm too tired to think in detail about what to do with your paths.  Uh, let's see... enchantment 5 gets you Friendly Currents, Antimagic, Seeking Arrow, and undead fun times.  Evocation gets you lightning and some other stuff, Evocations 7 will let you cast Nether Darts at a hilariously high path level.  Construction 4 gets you thug gear but you don't need any boosters or mage items in the short term.  Alteration 4 + Enchantment 4 gets you Winter Ward + Wolven Winter, and all it will cost you is a ton of water gems and still not be that great unless the fight goes forever.  I dunno, Alteration gets you some stuff but not enough stuff unless you want invest more heavily in thugs than I think you should.

Oh and you'll want to do blood eventually but not early and it will never be your main shtick.

Edit: now to finalize my own strategy.  Anyone want me to delay submitting the pretender?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:22:57 am by EnigmaticHat »
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule
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