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Author Topic: Replicating Sparta  (Read 3328 times)

Tamren

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 10:16:00 pm »

Ignore the metagamer, hes just trying to sound smart, but ends up more in the realm of "deluded".

Anyway, phalanx tactics do not really work that well.

I think im gonna go with the original idea somewhat, meaning little equipment, and all of it bronze. Im going to hack the raws a bit and make the shield and such "epicly" powerful so the dwarves will not get slaughtered. Then im going to wait for sieges to start, then piss off the dwarfs, elves and humans.

Well see how things go  :D, the plan is to lure all of the enemies into a tight corridor with a bridge in it. Behind the bridge will be all of my speardwarves. As soon as the enemy approaches and bunches up in front of the bridge, the bridge gets raised and all hell breaks loose.

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Tarrasque

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 04:16:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Sappho:
<STRONG>You're right, of course, Tarrasque.  I just remember my Greek professor getting all irritated at that movie because they neglected to point out that the small group of Spartans were NOT the only ones willing to fight for their region.  (Greece wasn't actually a united country yet, though they all mostly spoke the same language, which united them to a degree.)

</STRONG>


Yes, but, you undestand how much less impressive it sounds if none of the highly trained and elite soldiers die if they have three thousand other Greeks there as fodder.  :D Although, as I said, there was only a small number of soldiers on the field at one time and the area was totally horrible for the attacking force. I really do not see how the Persians expected to overrun the position without extremely heavy losses. Hrm, perhaps they hoped for a failure of morale.

300 was a movie, about a graphic novel about an event in history. Needless to say the graphic novel embelished a lot of facts and the movie just emblesished things more.

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Asehujiko

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 04:37:00 am »

Wrong. It's a movie about a graphic novel about a book about a story about a battle report about a historical event. Somewhere down that line "historical" got thrown out of the window(or kicked into a pit).
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Tarrasque

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 05:41:00 am »

Yeah, yeah, some long line of stuff, I remember some of it, but, thanks for the info   :D
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Tamren

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 10:46:00 am »

Heh, well the thining behind the movie is that it was made the way the Greeks would have told it as an epic legend.
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Sappho

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 02:26:00 pm »

Tarrasque - As I was not there, I certainly can't tell you anything with 100% certainty (Asehujiko is completely correct of course).  I can tell you with as much certainty as possible that the Persians were not used to fighting against well-armed forces.  They were used to fighting against the typical forces of the day, which fought in a scattered way (like our dwarves) and used weak or no armor.  They had never encountered a phalanx, they had never seen armor and shields so strong, and their own equipment was weak in comparison though it was the best they had ever known.  In short, the idea that anyone could ever stand up to them was laughable - they couldn't conceive of something that could.  Morale played into it as well, they did have soldiers called "immortals" who apparently marched in silent formation which was very intimidating, and were great soldiers - but again, their weapons and armor were shoddy compared to the spartans' and they were easily taken down.

Thinking some more about this challenge game - if you're not looking to replicate Spartan society, but rather the movie 300, then it seems the important thing is the battle itself.  If you want to make their weapons and armor look like in the movie, that's up to you, though it's not really important as you're tweaking the raws anyway.  If you built a long narrow tunnel for your entrance and stationed your men in the middle of it, properly equipped, and waited for a seige, that would work - though you'd have to make sure you were horribly outnumbered.  Also, to make things most accurate, you should dig a 1-tile tunnel from some distance behind your troops to the entrance, but lock the door.  Midway through the battle, unlock the door and let the goblins through.

Vendetta

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 05:21:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tarrasque:
<STRONG>

Yes, but, you undestand how much less impressive it sounds if none of the highly trained and elite soldiers die if they have three thousand other Greeks there as fodder.   :D Although, as I said, there was only a small number of soldiers on the field at one time and the area was totally horrible for the attacking force. I really do not see how the Persians expected to overrun the position without extremely heavy losses. Hrm, perhaps they hoped for a failure of morale.

300 was a movie, about a graphic novel about an event in history. Needless to say the graphic novel embelished a lot of facts and the movie just emblesished things more.</STRONG>


Xerxes didn't much care about heavy losses. The Persian army massively outnumbered the Greeks  The greeks had, on the first two days of the battle, an army of some 7000 men.  Xerxes had around 200,000.  On the second day, most of the Greek army retreated (they were losing quite heavily), leaving 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, and around 1400 assorted other troops, (mostly Helots, Spartan slave soldiers).

That was when the Greeks retreated to the Hot Gates, where the terrain (a 14m wide pass between the mountains and the shore of the Gulf of Malis with three actual gates along it, and a defensive wall at the middle gate, which barricaded the pass, and from which the Greeks fought).  The narrow pass meant that the Greek army could cycle it's front line troops as they began to tire, keeping them fresh and able to fight.

That was why it took the Persian army so long to break through, it wasn't because they were fighting better trained or equipped enemies, because Xerxes' army was no slouch either, but because they were assaulting a naturally defensive position where their numerical superiority meant nothing.

And at the end of the day, they still won, and probably would have conquered Greece if Themistocles (the Athenian leader of the Greek fleet, and an extremely cunning individual) hadn't managed to trick Xerxes into fighting at the Strait of Salamis, allowing him to destroy most of Xerxes' fleet, and forcing him to withdraw his land army from Greece, as he couldn't supply it without his ships.  Thermopylae was one of those epic and bloody military follies, like the Charge of the Light Brigade, that killed a lot of people to no real tactical advantage.

The Battle of Salamis was the one that saved Greece.

Also, contrary to what you might think, the Persian army was well used to the Phalanx, it being the dominant form of infantry warfare for everyone in the ancient world for the last three centuries (And even further back, the earliest recorded evidence of a shield wall/spear hedge is a Sumerian carving from around 2450BCE).  The Greeks, particularly the Spartans, just happened to be better at it than anyone else.  The Persians knew that as well, the last attempted invasion having been headed off at the Battle of Marathon in 490BCE by an Athenian army using a wide but shallow phalanx which encircled the Persian army at engagement and slaughtered them wholesale.

Their equipment would not have been quite as good, but that was because of the size of the army, it was hard to find that much bronze, though the persians were just as good at working it.  (probably better, in places.  The Persian empire was, at the time, the largest that had yet been carved out).

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Lokum

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 06:52:00 pm »

Spartan living. Ever hear that term? Spartans lived VERY simple lives and lifestyles. They're everything was simple. Very bare lifestyles.

Edit: Basically my rule would be EVERYONE must be Profiecient + + + in Spears Armor and Crossbows. Every peice of armor and weapon must be made of either copper or bronze. No minting of coins. 'Houses' must replicate a Greek house but must use no fancy materials sticking to boring stones and there must be a courtyard in every big home. And face every single attack with soliders and no doomsday devices. Also; screw the elves BECUASE ITS DWARF FORTRESS!!!

[ September 05, 2007: Message edited by: Lokum ]

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Peristarkawan

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 09:43:00 pm »

A brief note on historical accuracy: while bronze armor was indeed typical in classical Greece (plate, but chain also makes some sense as the Greeks at the time placed value in lightweight armor), weapons were predominantly made of iron -- at least for the important business end.

Also, note that a Spartan simulation shouldn't mint any coins, as Sparta used iron bars for currency, to discourage hoarding.

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Asehujiko

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 04:04:00 am »

The spartans used the best weapons and armor they could get their hands on. Historicaly that was bronze and iron, but in df that will be steeel/adamantium.

Chasm all elves you find btw.

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Tamren

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 01:09:00 pm »

How would we replicate that scene in the movie?

The only thing i can think of is to put a cage at the chasm edge, station a hammerdwarf right beside it and open the cage.

WHat SHOULD happen is the cage goes poof the hammerdwarf bashes the goblins/troll whatever into the chasm.

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Lightning4

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 08:56:00 pm »

A highly skilled swordsdwarf with a good sword should work too.
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Aquillion

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 09:13:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Sappho:
<STRONG>You're right, of course, Tarrasque.  I just remember my Greek professor getting all irritated at that movie because they neglected to point out that the small group of Spartans were NOT the only ones willing to fight for their region.  (Greece wasn't actually a united country yet, though they all mostly spoke the same language, which united them to a degree.)

And I think the challenge using crossbows would be simply producing enough food, drink, weapons, armor, beds, etc. to keep everyone happy.  With the majority of the dwarves in the army, your work force is cut considerably.</STRONG>


The real thing to get annoyed at in the movie (and, really, at a lot of popular culture since) is how it has idolized that epic battle where they stood and fought...  even though that wasn't really what stopped the Persians.  In fact, the message of 300 is exactly wrong.  The war wasn't won by the fight-them-every-step-of-the-way Spartans; it was won by the Athenians, who had the courage and discipline to abandon their homes instead of fighting uselessly to defend them, so that they could eventually fight the Persians on their own terms and win.
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Ryven

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 09:39:00 pm »

Yes, but winning is for pansies.

And remember, losing is fun!

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Lokum

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Re: Replicating Sparta
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2007, 09:50:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Asehujiko:
<STRONG>The spartans used the best weapons and armor they could get their hands on. Historicaly that was bronze and iron, but in df that will be steeel/adamantium.

Chasm all elves you find btw.</STRONG>


Then in that case everyone must use steel or adamantium. Sparta was the only greek city state to have an uniformed army. Apparently everyone was on the Bring Your On Weapons and Armor.
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