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Author Topic: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)  (Read 2168 times)

TanaNari

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Because I'm aware you'll have to rebuild the whole game from the ground up, more or less, to update to the new release (I do not envy you)... I offer some purely mechanical suggestions. Not to change the "flavor" you're trying to create, but to make the whole thing cleaner and easier in the long run.

My current dorf worldgen in a nutshell:

Harder everything on. Aquifers/Diseases/secret fun off because they're annoying more than challenging.

Warlocks and automatons turned off for annoyance factor. Warlocks force archers and/or traps, which I dislike. I like melee and am not a fan of "high tech" stuff for DF. Humans, drow and gnomes off because they're too cheaty-good to trade with, not that it matters.

Variety of fortress defense races. I always keep the four hard races on, I pick others based on what I feel like.

All the "simple" stuff active. Part of why I love your mod is the simplicity of item sorting.

Most of the "tech" trees off. No libraries. No Magic. Usually no religion. No trap upgrading (I don't do traps, save what's needed to get the rare silk farm running). No guns. No chandler or Dyer or Painter or Toolmaker. No runes, no machinery. Only lab is herbalist. The steampunk and magic stuff just isn't to my liking.

Spoiler: The method (click to show/hide)

And that's the story of my first couple years in every fortress. Boring, right?

*Claps hands together* So, now the bugs, issues and suggestions.


1- For whatever reason, adamantine golems created at the colosseum are always friendly. Iron, Steel and Mithril are appropriately violent. Adamantine are not, becoming uncontrolled (not existing in the butcher/pasture lists) pets that head immediately to the meeting hall and stay there. I ass/u/me this is a bug.

1.5- Speaking of, all spawned pets seem to be uncontrolled. Including that dragon I bought one time. I'm guessing this can't be corrected, but you may want to warn newbies this feature is a bit bugged.

2- Balance Issue: rare silk farms need to be nerfed. It's far too easy to get rare silk spewers in this mod... several species running around, one of which is guaranteed from Drow, another very likely with elves (jungle spiders). It's a trivial matter to be spawning 100k+ worth of silk trade goods by year 3.

Solutions: reduce the value of rare silk so it's not as profitable, or reduce the number of rare silk spewers.

3- Balance Issue: Ironbark. It's mechanically useless, since you can acquire steeloaks just as easily, and they produce (obviously superior) steel for basically the exact same effort. Granted, ironbarks are cheaper, but not by enough.

Solution: increase the cost of steeloaks significantly, or make them take longer to grow. Remove ironbark from game as superfluous. Remove steeloaks as overpowered.

4- Speaking of superfluous, there's a number of meaningless "fluff" metals and equipment types. I get that they're flavorful, but I usually just melt everything down to build my own better equipment (through the miracle of quality levels) anyway.

Solution: remove item types and/or special metals that aren't any different than current types. Or at least put an option in the settings.

5- Speaking of options. Turning off smoke effects in the current options doesn't seem to fully work. I still get prayer (if religion's even on) and rotten smell and sweat when I decide to run with temp disabled in the late game for FPS reasons. My computer's kinda shit like that. I raw-edit to clear most of these out.

6- Turning off options doesn't really turn off options. No guns for me to build, but there are still guns available through trades (part of why I disable so many trade partners) or moods or, once, noble demands (One very dead noble right there). I disable magic, still see that stuff. Disable everything Spring Steel is used in, it's still there to buy or make. Disable the improved archery options, got a bladed bow from a mood. Libraries off, all the library supply production still available.

Sometimes my nobles demand I make things that aren't an option because the buildings to make them with don't exist. I figure this is a bug.

7- I recently discovered you can't make blocks, furniture or mechanisms from obsidian. Still consumed during moods, which is great if you're toying with the planepacked glitch in a stoneworker mood.


That's a list of bugs and balance issues I've noticed in my playthroughs. Hopefully they'll be useful for future considerations.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 11:54:58 am by TanaNari »
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vjmdhzgr

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Uh, I'm pretty sure the time to update 6.2 was over a year ago, and that it's not getting updated anymore. Unless you somehow mean updating the reborn version, in which case, I've asked Toady a few times before, and from what I've heard there are going to be minimal changes to the raws, and very few tokens added. So updating the reborn version would probably take an hour total.
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Meph

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I still love feedback like this. I'm still around, reading everything.
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Meph

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Uh, I'm pretty sure the time to update 6.2 was over a year ago, and that it's not getting updated anymore. Unless you somehow mean updating the reborn version, in which case, I've asked Toady a few times before, and from what I've heard there are going to be minimal changes to the raws, and very few tokens added. So updating the reborn version would probably take an hour total.
PS: Nope. Updating the reborn version will take... a month or so, because it requires dfhack and therapist to be playable. And those apps need a long time. Yes, I can update the raws, but without dfhack, a lot of things will not function.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

vjmdhzgr

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Uh, I'm pretty sure the time to update 6.2 was over a year ago, and that it's not getting updated anymore. Unless you somehow mean updating the reborn version, in which case, I've asked Toady a few times before, and from what I've heard there are going to be minimal changes to the raws, and very few tokens added. So updating the reborn version would probably take an hour total.
PS: Nope. Updating the reborn version will take... a month or so, because it requires dfhack and therapist to be playable. And those apps need a long time. Yes, I can update the raws, but without dfhack, a lot of things will not function.
Well the updating process aside from waiting for DFHack probably won't take long.
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TanaNari

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Huh. I'm more familiar with other games than DF as far as modding goes, thought there'd be more to it than some relatively minor RAW alterations. I expected the skill changes and new pathfinding and change to trees to disrupt a lot of stuff.

And the way you (Meph) were talking in the Reborn  thread of rebuilding all the races from the ground up made it sound like you had to do that *anyway* for the update.

But that may just be experience with every other god damn game in the history of modding communities. (Minecraft being an especially extreme example)... Toady must really go out of his way to keep things stay that compatible between patches.


Either way, as long as you enjoyed the feedback. As a writer, I know what it means to have people let me know how much they're enjoying what I do, and things they think can be done better. I imagine it's no different for you.
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Meph

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Slight misunderstanding here. You are talking about the 34.11 (MDF 6.2) to 40.24 (MDF Reborn) update, which is massive. vjmdhzgr was talking about the 40.24 (MDF Reborn) to future release update, which seems to be much smaller.
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::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

TanaNari

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Ah, well, that would make sense.

But I *did* mention that I was talking about 6.2 in the subject line, and changes off of it that could be used when you get a chance to properly modify Reborn.
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fasquardon

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6- Turning off options doesn't really turn off options. No guns for me to build, but there are still guns available through trades (part of why I disable so many trade partners) or moods or, once, noble demands (One very dead noble right there). I disable magic, still see that stuff. Disable everything Spring Steel is used in, it's still there to buy or make. Disable the improved archery options, got a bladed bow from a mood. Libraries off, all the library supply production still available.

Sometimes my nobles demand I make things that aren't an option because the buildings to make them with don't exist. I figure this is a bug.

This right here is a big reason why I don't play Masterwork anymore.  I used to edit out the bits I didn't like from the raws manually but it just got to be a larger and larger chore with every new version.

That said, a much larger reason for not playing Masterwork is the underlying broken-ness of the DF economy.

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blapnk

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I think like vanilla dwarf fortress and danger rooms, it's up to the player if they want to exploit a broken mechanic. I eventually stopped using the colosseum for the reasons described, right about the point I was locking a squard in the coli room and have them farm raptors on repeat with a supply of food and drink next to them. And don't get me started on steel colossi farming...

I think it's fixed now but you used to be able to be able to get massive amounts of metal by copying a battleaxe of armok in the inventer's workbench in whatever metal you desire, and melting the product for what must have been 10 times the amount, far above any vanilla melting exploit.

Last I tried masterwork 6.2 it was still possible to make cheap metal grade weapons and armor out of nothing but dirt using the gem cutter and gemforge but the groundwork for fixed that is in reborn by using reaction classes and rough gems instead of cut ones. Slightly related, it's possible to increase the range of items made out of glass by using glass blocks in the stonecutter. Not a huge exploit, more an obsessive thing if you want to make everything out of glass.

Turning your legendary smith into a level three earthmage gives a ridiculous boost to stats and makes them pump out masterworks like nothing. Although that's pretty endgame so probably justified by that point. The only time I got that far my earthmage warriors were eaten by hfs anyway.

Playing Masterwork reborn feels much more subdued.

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TanaNari

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Re: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 07:47:51 pm »

To be fair, pumping out masterworks like nothing is easy enough in vanilla DF.
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urmane

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Re: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 10:01:31 am »

Code: [Select]
7- I recently discovered you can't make blocks, furniture or mechanisms from obsidian.
Yes, you can - I'm doing so in my fort right now.  You have to enable it - select z->Stone menu, highlight Obsidian, hit enter so it turns green.

Once I get enough idle beards, I set up a pipeline:
1: stone pile with not-metal, not-clay, not-obsidian, gives to:
2: mason shop, make rock blocks on repeat (make ten such jobs if you don't want other orders getting assigned here)
3: bar/block pile takes from #2 or anywhere, not bars, not other blocks, not obsidian, gives to:
4: crucible, melt blocks into obsidian
5: stone pile takes from #4, only obsidian enabled, gives to:
6: mason shop, make rock blocks on repeat
7: bar/block pile takes from #6, only obsidian blocks enabled

If you do the Furniture workshop, you may want to disable "take from anywhere" in #3 to cut down on hauling.  This seems faster than building a large obsidian magma/water farm, but I haven't timed it ... it certainly avoids the FPS problems from all that moving liquid.
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TanaNari

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Re: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 12:40:31 am »

Huh. Really.

Just goes to show there's always something new to learn about this game.


Also, why do you make obsidian with furnaces? I just build an obsidian farm. A 22x22x3 area (plus a 3x3 tube leading from magma to underground lake) yields well over a hundred obsidian per flush. Also gives your miners something to do in the late game.
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urmane

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Re: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 05:40:49 pm »

-shrug- No particular reason, other than I can.  Generally, though, it "seems" faster to set up, and somehow I always seem to have a bit too much !!FUN!! with an obsfarm - extra water left around makes magma spray, or extra magma left charbroils a miner, or something else that doesn't seem like it should happen.  It also seems to kill my FPS, altho by that point it's probably something else ... just can't resist those waterfalls ... :-)

Surface waterfall hitting the slade below uninterrupted: Achievement Still Locked

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TanaNari

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Re: Suggestions for the update, a game design perspective (or: how I break 6.2)
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2015, 01:16:16 pm »

My computer's too shit to handle waterfalls, but my obsidian generator only causes problems when it's in use, which is only when I'm down to ~200 obsidian or so. And that really doesn't happen a lot.

The damn silk farm causes more problems.

I go out of my way to make sure both can be turned off with ease.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 01:21:32 pm by TanaNari »
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