Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mrazomor]

alright so i found a bunch of old mods for the 2x.xx and 3x.xx versions of the game in my search for something that will make the game more defense-oriented (as in frequent sieges and such) as well as add some things to help me out deal with the more frequent sieges.
however, most of the mods i found something interesting in are usually for the older game version. i've started fiddling around with raws recently and while i am still a noob at that i did try just copying random creatures from a 3x.xx mod and they worked apparently without any problems in the latest version.

so my question here would be:
what is the difference between such basic things as creature entries and simple reactions in older mods compared to the new ones? is there something i am not familiar with that will prevent these things from functioning on a newer version of the game?

i would really like to just mush a bunch of random stuff from different mods into a personal-use 'modpack' for me to enjoy, but i kinda feel like i need to know more about this before i do anything.

[Eric Blank]

Back in the 2x era materials, creatures, etc. Had vastly simpler definitions. Each tissue didn't have to be defined, there were no castes, none of the complex interactions or syndromes we have now. Raws from back then would almost be easier to mimic working off current raws to resemble the attributes of the past mod, rather than update that mod. There are also innumerable tags that no longer have a purpose, and perhaps have been replaced with a more nuanced mode of doing that task.

The raws get more new things and new ways to define things as you move on to new versions, but there will always be work you have to do to get 34.x stuff working in 40.xx. For one thing, necks/throats on creatures weren't set up the same as they are now.

If you really want to make old deprecated mods good as new, what youre going to want to do is delve into every aspect of modding and learn to do it all. We can help, of course!

[Mrazomor]

Back in the 2x era materials, creatures, etc. Had vastly simpler definitions. Each tissue didn't have to be defined, there were no castes, none of the complex interactions or syndromes we have now. Raws from back then would almost be easier to mimic working off current raws to resemble the attributes of the past mod, rather than update that mod. There are also innumerable tags that no longer have a purpose, and perhaps have been replaced with a more nuanced mode of doing that task.

The raws get more new things and new ways to define things as you move on to new versions, but there will always be work you have to do to get 34.x stuff working in 40.xx. For one thing, necks/throats on creatures weren't set up the same as they are now.

If you really want to make old deprecated mods good as new, what youre going to want to do is delve into every aspect of modding and learn to do it all. We can help, of course!

mhm, i had thought creature files were a tad bit shorter in the older mod raws, my suspicions were correct. thank you for that.

i've been reading a bit on modding from the wiki and from my past experiences i kinda get the idea what's supposed to be what and using some similar already existing 40.xx creature as a base makes things easier. thou im still at a bit of a loss when it comes to tags even when looking them up on the wiki. i will try exploring the raws deeper in a few days when i get more free time and will surely have more tedious questions to ask then. but all in due time...

[Bearskie]

From the top of my head, you'll need to define gaits, prepare and recover for attacks, necks, interactions replacing material breath attacks. The errorlog is your best friend here.

Trust me, restoring old raws gives you a comprehensive modding education.

[Mrazomor]

alright, i decided to take this a single slow step at a time starting with something simple - plants.

for the most part i understand what's what here but there are some things that are bothering me:

1) in different raw files i noticed differently arranged statistics:
-does way i arrange these lines have any effect on the game? for example, if i put biome and frequency right after the plant name and alcohol template at the very end with it not work?

2) which lines need to be grouped together:
-like how alcohol and seed 'use_material_template' get those sublines for value state_name and edible tags, are there other lines that need to be grouped together in the same way like biome for instance if i have more than one do i put every new biome entry in a new line or do i just put them in a single one?

3) things i clearly dont get:
-in the vanilla game's raws (from the newest 4x.xx version) after [GROWDUR:500] there is a [VALUE:X] added right after, value of what? structural_plant value is the value of the plant that grows and is picked by dwarfs, plant_alcohol value is the value of the drink made from the plant, etc but all these [VALUE:X] are added to something, this one just sits after growduration so i dont really get it.
-also is it possible to make a plant grow both underground and on surface if i add both biome tags or will something take priority there? i'd like to make bloated tubers and muck roots be growable underground as well (for reasons). if i put glacier as a biome the plant obviously wont grow because it cant grow on ice but if i add underground to it, will the plant grow only underground in glaciers?
-i noticed that in vanilla raws strawberries are the (apparently) only berries that have a fruit template added to them so when dwarfs harvest them we get strawberries and strawberry plants, what's up with that?
-one last thing (for now) if i make a plant that can be milled and i put its powder material to be, lets say, iron (so you can smelt it for iron obviously) will that cause any problems? or would i just make it use normal plant material for milled form and remove its edible tags and add a reaction to the smeltery for it?

[Bearskie]

1) in different raw files i noticed differently arranged statistics:
-does way i arrange these lines have any effect on the game? for example, if i put biome and frequency right after the plant name and alcohol template at the very end with it not work?

Order of tokens generally doesn't matter, unless you try something nonsensical where the tags explicitly rely on each other.

Use basic logic - you'll have to declare [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STRUCTURAL:STRUCTURAL_PLANT_TEMPLATE] before you can use it in [BASIC_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:STRUCTURAL], for example.

2) which lines need to be grouped together:
-like how alcohol and seed 'use_material_template' get those sublines for value state_name and edible tags, are there other lines that need to be grouped together in the same way like biome for instance if i have more than one do i put every new biome entry in a new line or do i just put them in a single one?

Things that require subtokens like [GROWTH:xxx]. Other that that, generally no, but similar tags should be kept close together for easy readability.

-in the vanilla game's raws (from the newest 4x.xx version) after [GROWDUR:500] there is a [VALUE:X] added right after, value of what? structural_plant value is the value of the plant that grows and is picked by dwarfs, plant_alcohol value is the value of the drink made from the plant, etc but all these [VALUE:X] are added to something, this one just sits after growduration so i dont really get it.

From the wiki: "Has no known effect. Previously set the value of the harvested plant."

Always refer to the wiki before asking what a tag does. It is arguably the most important resource for all modders.

-also is it possible to make a plant grow both underground and on surface if i add both biome tags or will something take priority there? i'd like to make bloated tubers and muck roots be growable underground as well (for reasons). if i put glacier as a biome the plant obviously wont grow because it cant grow on ice but if i add underground to it, will the plant grow only underground in glaciers?

Yes, multiple biome tags do apply.

Just go into vanilla plant raws, CTRL+F 'biome', and eventually you will come across an entry that shows more than one biome tag. Case in point: cucumbers.

-i noticed that in vanilla raws strawberries are the (apparently) only berries that have a fruit template added to them so when dwarfs harvest them we get strawberries and strawberry plants, what's up with that?

Wiki page on strawberries talks about this. Yeah, it's weird.

-one last thing (for now) if i make a plant that can be milled and i put its powder material to be, lets say, iron (so you can smelt it for iron obviously) will that cause any problems? or would i just make it use normal plant material for milled form and remove its edible tags and add a reaction to the smeltery for it?

For the first, iron powder is definitely possible, just the question of whether 'Melt item' accepts it as a reagent. Second will work fine.

[Mrazomor]

Order of tokens generally doesn't matter, unless you try something nonsensical where the tags explicitly rely on each other.

Use basic logic - you'll have to declare [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STRUCTURAL:STRUCTURAL_PLANT_TEMPLATE] before you can use it in [BASIC_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:STRUCTURAL], for example.

Things that require subtokens like [GROWTH:xxx]. Other that that, generally no, but similar tags should be kept close together for easy readability.

alright, i dont need to obsess over slightly differently arranged raws, good to know.

From the wiki: "Has no known effect. Previously set the value of the harvested plant."

i guess there's no harm in skipping it then, since i noticed some plants dont have that one.

Always refer to the wiki before asking what a tag does. It is arguably the most important resource for all modders.

i somehow missed that page about plant tags you linked, but yea, so far i got that the wiki si crucial to anything dwarf fortress related.

Yes, multiple biome tags do apply.

Just go into vanilla plant raws, CTRL+F 'biome', and eventually you will come across an entry that shows more than one biome tag. Case in point: cucumbers.

cool, i thought surface biome tags and underground tags would cancel one another, like how when you put male and female gender on a same creature and the game just takes the last one into consideration.

Wiki page on strawberries talks about this. Yeah, it's weird.

i just delete that fruit part and...strawberries will be like all other plants i assume?

i suppose that's all for plants i needed to know so far. i'll move on to metals and materials when im done with these and then finally to creatures.

thanks for help Bearskie!

[Bearskie]

-also is it possible to make a plant grow both underground and on surface if i add both biome tags or will something take priority there? i'd like to make bloated tubers and muck roots be growable underground as well (for reasons). if i put glacier as a biome the plant obviously wont grow because it cant grow on ice but if i add underground to it, will the plant grow only underground in glaciers?

I forgot to note, it won't mean the plant only grew underground in glaciers, it would mean that the plant would grow underground AND also in glaciers.

Again, test things out and see how it goes. I may be wrong on some of these matters. I'm more of a creature person.

[Mrazomor]

I forgot to note, it won't mean the plant only grew underground in glaciers, it would mean that the plant would grow underground AND also in glaciers.

Again, test things out and see how it goes. I may be wrong on some of these matters. I'm more of a creature person.

yea, just tested that, i was looking more to make a certain plant grow only in underground glaciers for instance, but its alright. so far its going well besides that.

[Mrazomor]

for the most part, metals/materials seem to be the same between 3x and 4x versions. from the wiki and examples everything is basically clear regarding metal stats im currently going over. still, some raws i got from older mods seem to have some lines missing sporadically.

so 3 things:

1) if the wiki states that a statistic defaults to X, if i do not define this statistic will it just use the default or will this statistic not be added to the material at all.
MAX_EDGE for example defaults to 10000, if i do not add it to a material will it not have any MAX_EDGE or will it be set to its default 10000?

2) if the previous answer is: if a stat is not defined the game does not use the stat's default automatically - will there be any problem if i do not define something like molar mass (apparently not used) or liquid density?

3) while i can just define weapon/armor qualities when made from a specific metal by consulting the already existing metals, is there any guideline that says something like:
for SHEAR_YIELD use values:
1-50 for awful
51-100 for poor
101-250 for alright
251-500 for very good
501-1000 for amazing
and 1000+ for 2strong4me
while it doesnt seem too hard to adjust these stats according to existing metals i feel like there's just a lot of places i can slip and break something somewhere without even knowing.

[z3shep]

1) if the wiki states that a statistic defaults to X, if i do not define this statistic will it just use the default or will this statistic not be added to the material at all.
MAX_EDGE for example defaults to 10000, if i do not add it to a material will it not have any MAX_EDGE or will it be set to its default 10000?

The game will always use default values for tokens if you don't specify them to be a different value.

3) while i can just define weapon/armor qualities when made from a specific metal by consulting the already existing metals, is there any guideline that says something like:
for SHEAR_YIELD use values:
1-50 for awful
51-100 for poor
101-250 for alright
251-500 for very good
501-1000 for amazing
and 1000+ for 2strong4me
while it doesnt seem too hard to adjust these stats according to existing metals i feel like there's just a lot of places i can slip and break something somewhere without even knowing.

For these, you have to understand that everything is relative. If a chart like that were to be created, it would need some sort of reference point.

Consider two materials. If one has a higher IMPACT_YIELD than the other, then hitting two identically shaped objects made of them together would end up in the stronger material winning out in the end. By how much the stronger material would win depends on it's relative superiority. If the better material is stronger by only a small amount, it will take significant damage in the process as well. If it's twice as strong, theoretically it would take half the damage. If you were to multiply every material's properties by 10, theoretically there would be no difference in what could be observed.

Code: [Select]

[IMPACT_YIELD:10000]  (Wood Template)
[IMPACT_YIELD:542500] (Iron)
Who wins?
Shaping material properties around the ones already defined is the only way to achieve what you want.

Though, I would prefer you to take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here, using whatever common sense and experience I have. Hopefully this can be helpful to you.

[Mrazomor]

The game will always use default values for tokens if you don't specify them to be a different value.

ah, good to know.

For these, you have to understand that everything is relative. If a chart like that were to be created, it would need some sort of reference point.

Consider two materials. If one has a higher IMPACT_YIELD than the other, then hitting two identically shaped objects made of them together would end up in the stronger material winning out in the end. By how much the stronger material would win depends on it's relative superiority. If the better material is stronger by only a small amount, it will take significant damage in the process as well. If it's twice as strong, theoretically it would take half the damage. If you were to multiply every material's properties by 10, theoretically there would be no difference in what could be observed.

Code: [Select]

[IMPACT_YIELD:10000]  (Wood Template)
[IMPACT_YIELD:542500] (Iron)
Who wins?
Shaping material properties around the ones already defined is the only way to achieve what you want.

i've spent some additional hours going through metals on the wiki and from what you've explained, i guess i will have to think it out a bit before fiddling with new metal stats. but you paint a pretty solid picture, i came to some similar conclusion from reading the wiki but i wasnt really sure if i got it right.

Though, I would prefer you to take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here, using whatever common sense and experience I have. Hopefully this can be helpful to you.

i understand, and yes, it is quite helpful, thank you for that sir.

[Mrazomor]

how about that golem creation feature i've seen in some mods, the ability to turn a dwarf into a golem, i havent seen it reworked from 3x version into the new one. is such a thing still possible? cuz if it is, i would really like to make it happen.
i found an old mod called kitkat's golems, and i believe it was also implemented in one of the df genesis versions, but im not fully understanding either of them.

[Putnam]

for the most part, metals/materials seem to be the same between 3x and 4x versions. from the wiki and examples everything is basically clear regarding metal stats im currently going over. still, some raws i got from older mods seem to have some lines missing sporadically.

so 3 things:

1) if the wiki states that a statistic defaults to X, if i do not define this statistic will it just use the default or will this statistic not be added to the material at all.
MAX_EDGE for example defaults to 10000, if i do not add it to a material will it not have any MAX_EDGE or will it be set to its default 10000?

2) if the previous answer is: if a stat is not defined the game does not use the stat's default automatically - will there be any problem if i do not define something like molar mass (apparently not used) or liquid density?

3) while i can just define weapon/armor qualities when made from a specific metal by consulting the already existing metals, is there any guideline that says something like:
for SHEAR_YIELD use values:
1-50 for awful
51-100 for poor
101-250 for alright
251-500 for very good
501-1000 for amazing
and 1000+ for 2strong4me
while it doesnt seem too hard to adjust these stats according to existing metals i feel like there's just a lot of places i can slip and break something somewhere without even knowing.

1. Default is 1000 or 10000, I think. Forgot which.
2. Liquid density will probably be a problem. Best use templates.
3. YIELD and FRACTURE values are in kilopascals. STRAIN_AT_YIELD is in parts-per-100000, or percentage times 1,000, and can be derived from a material's relevant YIELD value and its relevant elastic modulus.

Uh. I think I'd just use this for real-life materials

how about that golem creation feature i've seen in some mods, the ability to turn a dwarf into a golem, i havent seen it reworked from 3x version into the new one. is such a thing still possible? cuz if it is, i would really like to make it happen.
i found an old mod called kitkat's golems, and i believe it was also implemented in one of the df genesis versions, but im not fully understanding either of them.

DFHack thing mostly, very unreliable without it.

[Mrazomor]

Uh. I think I'd just use this for real-life materials

hoho, this looks very helpful, thanks.

DFHack thing mostly, very unreliable without it.

i guess i'll just leave golems for later once im done with converting creatures and stuffs.