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Author Topic: New temple issues  (Read 7185 times)

Halnoth

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New temple issues
« on: December 01, 2015, 11:47:23 pm »

First off, I like the new version, simply amazing. Now dwarf fortress sorta has an end game.

I like the idea of temples so thats the first thing I tested out. It seems that the zone itself works fine, meaning that dwarves show up and worship. However, as far as I can tell the act of worshipping is not satisfying the dwarves needs or producing happy thoughts. I tried varying the size, putting more furniture in, assigning a performer, and even burrowing only the dwarves that worship that god in the temple.

Has anyone else had this issue?

Any solutions?

Any ideas?

Also, has anyone tried the [RELIGEON] tag on a noble yet to see if it does anything?

I saw that Toady posted a couple things about this but I'm curious if this is something others are noticing or is it just me and a handful of other temple newbs?
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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2015, 12:20:47 am »

Everyone's having trouble with worship not satisfying that need, and Toady's posted in a thread about it already. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154206.msg6638296#msg6638296
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Halnoth

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2015, 12:38:55 am »

Everyone's having trouble with worship not satisfying that need, and Toady's posted in a thread about it already. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154206.msg6638296#msg6638296

Ya, as I said in the OP I saw Toady's post. I thought it might help to open a thread specifically about the issue instead of discussing it in the other thread alongside everything else.
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One of the dwarfs walked in front of Thor to get a better view of the prye, and Thor kicked him irritably into the middle of the flames, which made Thor feel slightly better and made all the dwarfs feel much worse.

Cloth Armor Mod http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158967.msg7063531#msg7063531

Toady One

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2015, 12:43:04 am »

Are they even branching into the pray activity?  "Worship" is like socialize -- it doesn't satisfy anything, but gets subactivities like pray and performances.
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vjek

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2015, 12:54:04 am »

I just see Worship for performers and Worship! for everyone else.  Never Pray or Dancing or anything else for an activity.

Here's a save showing this behavior.

FortunaDraken

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2015, 01:06:47 am »

I get both colour worships from time to time, but they don't branch off into anything else. The purple guys just get stuck there, while the others are least going to do normal things.

I found out that you can cancel the purple worship by drafting the problem dwarf into the military and ordering them to do something, for those who need their people to stop being silly.
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Toady One

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 01:30:08 am »

I just see Worship for performers and Worship! for everyone else.  Never Pray or Dancing or anything else for an activity.

Here's a save showing this behavior.

Cool.  I'll give it a shot once I tackle these freeze problems.
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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2015, 02:32:52 am »

No one had created the ticket yet so I did. http://bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9147

Worship!
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Halnoth

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2015, 02:39:54 am »

Are they even branching into the pray activity?  "Worship" is like socialize -- it doesn't satisfy anything, but gets subactivities like pray and performances.

No all I see is green and purple worship. No pray activity.
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One of the dwarfs walked in front of Thor to get a better view of the prye, and Thor kicked him irritably into the middle of the flames, which made Thor feel slightly better and made all the dwarfs feel much worse.

Cloth Armor Mod http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158967.msg7063531#msg7063531

Klitri

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2015, 10:28:16 am »

Yay I'm being noticed!

Anyway, yes, I wasn't getting pray either for the record.
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P4N1C

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2015, 01:23:44 pm »

hope this bug gets fixed soon, setting up all the temples for the civ gods (and getting a few random pilgrims?!!) was really fun!

another thing i noticed about temples was in the (l) screen, it notes the available space in the zone, and for anything smaller than 5x5 the text is yellow. but at 5x5 and above, the text is white. i'm assuming that's better than yellow. i was hoping the lack of proper prayer was due to this, but it looks not (still getting desperate purple worshippers). however, i'm wondering if it does affect anything (when the worship activity can complete and fulfill the need)? like maybe dwarves would get an unhappy thought from having to pray in a crowded temple... also placing statues (of the gods of course) counts the same as walls (because impassible) and therefore reduces the calculated temple space. okay, but also, kind of annoying because that's the thing that seems most temple-y as furniture! i guess if the dwarves were actually dancing properly (really want to see that :^) the large space wouldn't seem as silly.
okay, i'll stop rambling, i'm just excited about temples. ahh this whole update is so interesting! (when it... works properly...>>)
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MobRules

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2015, 04:17:01 pm »

for anything smaller than 5x5 the text is yellow. but at 5x5 and above, the text is white. i'm assuming that's better than yellow. i was hoping the lack of proper prayer was due to this, but it looks not (still getting desperate purple worshippers). however, i'm wondering if it does affect anything (when the worship activity can complete and fulfill the need)?

The white text / yellow text sounds like it matches the color of holdings on the Nobles screen: white if they have everything they need at sufficient quality, yellow if they have it, but it's not good enough, red if they don't have it at all. Perhaps the meaning is parallel?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2015, 05:21:08 pm »

Unless i've just done something wrong (in doing something right) Temples are working fine so far for me, but then again i only have one, in a fort with enough useless migrant specialties for me to not notice lack of productivity anyway.

The trick i've found is that each temple is set to a diety upon creation based on what your worshippers need as a majority, (name of said diety can't be viewed from the locations menu oddly enough, but i do remember setting it to the most relevant, i recommend attaching relevant names and reading up on your gods for guidance, unless some UI can be put in) then allocate a large space (excluding the first tile, i recommend two dwarves for every 1 floor space approximiately to give them room because they'll often flood the interior and performers will benefit from the open space as dwarves often like to stand outside the 'interior zone' i've observed in my tavern for interactions)

I've got a modest sized room/burial catacomb 10x10 with a little abstract design cluttering up the floor and dwarves just roll in and worship in thier inactivity given that there is enough floor room to accommodate the current worshipper count of the fort for the temples patron i find, any excess temple worshippers that dont believe in said god just clutter the room up but are drawn to it (bit like flypaper really) because specifically it is a meeting point, and without other places to go to (large or numerous meeting areas in public areas) they'll allocate themselves while inactive to fufill thier overdue pent desire to worship (You could give a open air outside tempoary temple/s a go) denying 'floorspace' in which to worship (unlike organised gatherings at the tavern).

Running off this, my theoretical solution would be to build reusable rooms (spare dorms/barracks or store space) and plan ahead for increasing population milestones in order to retire existing chapels, and set up new ones with constantly refreshed follower counts (in a little number next to the deity on the temple creation before it is locked in) until the traffic between areas gets to such a level that controlled populations aren't queueing up for the same space (I smell a job stacking issue myself akin to pots being reserved for use on jobs that haven't happened yet)

As a point of reference, compared to passive subactivities (green) that are not being engaged, purple active subactivities are actually happening within the proximity (can be observed directly in taverns when numerous dwarves engage to dance, thier activity will turn purple whilst they are dancing on the jobs screen, as does as even stronger evidence observers watching the dance from the 'exterior' area)

That's my idea of how these systems work, but i have been taking notes (I take good care of my dwarves, even if most of them are cheese making freeloaders) And i've never seen anybody pray to my knowledge, i thought they just passively worshipped to fufill thier need whilst (i will try encouraging equal distribution of worshippers across temples to see if it's a population thing, since at the moment my tavern has a controlled population and runs smoothly with a equal goblet - floorspace ratio) they were inactive, given they dont grumble a awful lot about it anyway and i rarely check.

As a quick idea soundboard to additionally resolve this, you can attach rooms to chapels if i reckon that to be right, perhaps dwarves need a piece of furniture or a study/dining room to space out functions in the chapel (im thinking stone throne pews in my mind as a alternative) thats secluded enough to cut away the traffic to the main temple though toady's mention by his thread initially discourages this thought but i will try it anyway.
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Ysyua

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2015, 05:55:08 pm »

As a point of reference, compared to passive subactivities (green) that are not being engaged, purple active subactivities are actually happening within the proximity (can be observed directly in taverns when numerous dwarves engage to dance, thier activity will turn purple whilst they are dancing on the jobs screen, as does as even stronger evidence observers watching the dance from the 'exterior' area)

Not quite correct. Toady said this and this, which suggests to me that your dwarves aren't actually getting their prayer needs satisfied. Check their screens.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: New temple issues
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2015, 06:09:20 pm »

Not quite correct. Toady said this and this, which suggests to me that your dwarves aren't actually getting their prayer needs satisfied. Check their screens.

Ah, i see. Looks like i've misunderstood the connection, given the purple activity (tavern dancing + observing) is indistinguishable from what i perceived to be activity on the jobs list that i use to monitor these things.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'm still running some tests with outdoor starter temples to get the space distribution method hypothesis going (though retiring the temple location just caused my game to crash so it's going to be a matter of persistence if this is recurring)
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