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Poll

Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion/debate?

Yes
- 21 (27.3%)
No
- 45 (58.4%)
Not decided entirely, maybe
- 11 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?  (Read 19468 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2015, 06:07:28 pm »

It encourages debate, but not the changing of opinions.

What places do?

Generally speaking I like to say: "No matter how hard you try, you will never change someone's opinion during the debate"
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Zangi

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2015, 06:15:49 pm »

People could agree to disagree... it ain't likely for people to change their minds on the subject or even acknowledge that maybe the other person is right about something.  (Wherein someone else comes in to take the torch when one drops out.  >.>)
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2015, 06:17:34 pm »

People could agree to disagree... it ain't likely for people to change their minds on the subject or even acknowledge that maybe the other person is right about something.  (Wherein someone else comes in to take the torch when one drops out.  >.>)

Well my saying actually means that people actually change their minds and oppinions... after a debate

Unless it is just a mistake "I think chocolate is made from Coffee beans"
"No sorry... it really is made from Coacoa beans... look at this web page"
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Reelya

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2015, 06:18:40 pm »

"your lying" was the most common pre-internet tactic to shut people up when they mention anything that conflicts with the dominant TV-official worldview. Yeah, i can't say the old days encouraged actual debate.

It wouldn't have mattered if you had 15 scientific papers you could cite which agreed with you, people would literally deny the existence of whichever evidence source you cited and say you made it up. Mind you, this wasn't academic circles, but it was a damn big percentage of the lay population who thought like this.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:20:42 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2015, 06:25:17 pm »

It seems to me that any time I am online and get into an argument (or am reading one) in which the people arguing are severely polarized into two sides of an argument, then many times it eventually falls into insults and finally offrails into people personally attacking each other and their views or beliefs.
Do you have an opinion? Does the Internet discourage people having intellectual debate and actually coming to conclusive answers? Do you have any experiences or evidence to back up your claim?
Tbh go to any site like the chans where moderation is lack and everyone treats attacks and insults as par the course completely honest no holds barred intellectual discussion takes place where nothing is sacred, nothing is assumed and everything can be attacked. Since everyone is anonymous and there is no advantage to building up/preserving a reputation/gaining ebin pointsssss the system does not turn into a hugbox and flamewars do not take place because there are no egos (which is why people who try to avatar get shut down by everyone else as quickly as possible). It's pretty good for intellectual discussion especially when it comes to democratizing intellectual debate, so it's not just in the realm of the pretentious and state approved (hence why China, Google and Western politicians spout such bizarre rhetoric that shitposters are shitposter terrorists just as dangerous as cheeky jihad bandits) muggy warts. The one flaw is that it relies on users continually creating new content and new ideas in the free market of ideas, and usually as a certain board kultur grows in popularity the free market of ideas tends to switch away from quality discussion to a watered down, mass marketed parroting should the lowest common denominator ever outnumber the people actually contributing. Then there's shills and spammers, which you don't get in real life. Well, I guess you do get those in real life. But on the internet shills and spammers can really take advantage of groupthink to crush intellectual discussion. Peer pressure is powerful, few people want to be someone who stands out to the crowd, hence why people of political persuasions all flock to their own communities in real life and online. But on the internet this is so easily abused, with one person through many accounts becoming a crowd unto themself to influence the rest, give orders and guide the narrative. Another thing is that with mods, shills, facebook, twitter, youtube and so on able to silence certain narratives by shadow banning, delisting, deleting, doxxing and diluting, on most mainstream sites of discussion the only debate that can take place are within approved boundaries. So you could look for some small community with no gestapo or secret FBI mods where the discussion is good, but usually such places discuss outside approved boundaries on the fringe where the diversity of opinion can be narrower, so you have a place where anyone can say anything but many say little out of the ordinary.
Personally I find that when you have discussions where people are quoting everything from the Bhagavad Gita to the Protocols, from the German Ideology to discourses on Zen and most important of all - quotes from the anonymous, whose arguments were preserved through time for their own sake... I am content.
Otherwise yes it discourages intellectual discussion. The biggest issue is that people want to save face and don't want to be wrong. When you're anonymous this is no concern, but even on bay12 what usually happens is it descends into flamewar or the discussion just ends. That isn't debate, that's endurance.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:26:51 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2015, 06:52:37 pm »

Then there's shills and spammers, which you don't get in real life. Well, I guess you do get those in real life.
You get more shills on TV that real life or he internet. TV commercials are nothing but unsolicited shills.

EDIT:
And that's not even getting into the solicited shills like tv news programs, political debates, and any program made by a toy company.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:55:22 pm by Bohandas »
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2015, 07:06:32 pm »

What I love was that there was this terrible videogame where your goal is basically to shut down trolls

Yet the game lacks total self-awareness and trolls basically amount to "People who don't agree with you" (and I doubt the game was going to pull a "Who is the real monster")

What with "trolls" that are loved by their community for intellectual debate.
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Loud Whispers

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 08:31:06 pm by Loud Whispers »
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wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2015, 08:51:08 pm »

In some ways the internet makes such discussion easier; The words of one can reach a whole world, in theory. There is a vast sum of knowledge that can be linked to, and brought into the discussion...

On the other hand though, The internet is just too large to ingest in whole. The limits of human cognition causes necessary fragmentation, and while the information exists, many are ignorant of where to look for it, since it hides in so many corners of the net. This means people fall into familiar habits, and stick to places on the internet with which they are most comfortable. Such places tend to attract like minded people, and that means the exchange of ideas and philosophies suffers. This can lead to the wrong headed idea that a group has majority say, or worse, can serve as an echo chamber to reinforce opinionated ideas that lack all the facts.

The best way I have found to combat this problem is to force ones-self to look in dark corners, to seriously consider the opinionated rhetoric of others, then genuinely seek what supports them, to understand them, and then either accept or effectively counter them. 

That requires a dedication most people are unwilling to invest.

As such, the internet is a difficult place.
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Baffler

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2015, 09:10:25 pm »

Completely forgot to mention as well the SJWs trying to push for a SAFE NEW WORLD IN THE CURRENT YEAR

STOP HATETHOUGHTING ME

I found the source of this, a major forum called NeoGAF. I don't want to link to that thread in particular, but it's a pretty good example of the internet stifling discussion. In this case through biased moderation filtering out dissenting viewpoints. What doesn't get deleted is simply ignored. I don't go to other forums often, but what I see there really makes me happy to be a part of this one.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 09:12:20 pm by Baffler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2015, 10:03:27 pm »

My favourite internet gulag is a geopol forum where if you post anything right of Stalin the mod bans you and when he bans you gives you little quotes about needing to protect the sheep from wolves, it's cute
And when I mean right of Stalin I'm not joking. If you don't support air strikes on cishets begone sneaky wolf :D
Bay12 on the other hand is pretty damn awesome in comparison, we don't have epeen contests or hugboxes (anymore) ((vast majority of the time)) (((in the present moment))) and fucking hell we have a religion thread that isn't locked! If you can have that, you're pretty good. Well, we do have verboten subjects but for very practical reasons (more moderation disputes = less DF coding time) trying to open most every can of worms is understandably verboten, Bay12 is not exactly the entire internet
Not much to say on internet stifling/engaging discussion as I think I've said all I can say about my own personal experiences. All in all I think Bay12 is remarkable for everyone getting along so well, I wouldn't even say there's a single person on bay12 I've found unlikeable (some confusing, but all I like) even the ones I've terroristically shitposted at  :P

Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2015, 10:27:44 pm »

Completely forgot to mention as well the SJWs trying to push for a SAFE NEW WORLD IN THE CURRENT YEAR

STOP HATETHOUGHTING ME

I found the source of this, a major forum called NeoGAF. I don't want to link to that thread in particular, but it's a pretty good example of the internet stifling discussion. In this case through biased moderation filtering out dissenting viewpoints. What doesn't get deleted is simply ignored. I don't go to other forums often, but what I see there really makes me happy to be a part of this one.

What is odd is they don't seem to understand the irony... That the ONLY reason that they believe they will be unaffected is because they believe that they are right.

There are reasons why people fight for continued internet anominity and it isn't to protect racists...

Then again... there is something to say about someone who believes that just because someone is "racist" that they are "inhuman"...
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2015, 12:19:01 am »

Those social justice retards are the worst
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2015, 12:25:39 am »

Heck I am trying to think of a retort...

But no, they probably are the worst.

Even "raging racist A-hole" is at least so offensive as to be ignorable and so racist as to not be taken seriously.

While SJR are just at that right level of offensiveness to get under your skin and are not only talking about things important to you but actually have pull on it.
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wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2015, 12:40:01 am »

I seriously have often wondered what it is about "being offended!!" that drives people to always FIND something to be offended over.

(That is basically what SJW do. They typically live lives drenched in "priveledge", and are statistically unlikely to ever be directly implicated in any kind of organized or institutionalized inequality-- YET, they latch onto a group that does, so they can vicariously experience that sensation, and then raise a fuss over thier imagined inequalities. Because they are drenched in priveledge, they drown out the actual voices of the actually repressed (they have more resources to spread thier own version of "awareness"), adding ironic insult to those people's actual civic injuries.)

Every culture produces this demographic, so it must be a human specific thing...

It's almost like a milder form of Munchausen's by proxy. "Pay attention to me! I'm trying to HELP those POOR, UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE here!!"

I think it should be studied.

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