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Author Topic: Strongest base playable animal character?  (Read 30793 times)

puke

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2015, 01:47:14 pm »

Some thoughts on different creature types and their strengths:

Venomous:  I'm not sure this helps, the poison triggers about half the time (anecdotally.  real odds may be different.) I injected some poison into the head and necks of some gobbos, and there was a minor bit of pain and stunned-ness.  I'm not sure if they were stunned due to the strike, or due to the venom.  Hard to tell.

Multi-arms:  Lots of fun, great for wrestling or

Brown Recluse vs Bark Scorpion:

about the same size, both have poison, but the Scorpion comes with a sting and some pincers which are handy natural weapons.  for this reason, it gets my preference.

Since both are smaller than normal, they have to multi-grasp longswords and most normal weapons.  they are also fairly weak and become over-encumbered easily. 

They can't wear standard armor sizes, so that reduces their possible load, but it also makes them squishier.  You can still over burden them when you put heavy weapons and / or shields in all their hands.

I have ripped off limbs with single pincer strikes, so those seem as powerful as weapons.  Scorps are lots of fun, but I wouldn't consider them *STRONG*.

Elephant Seal Man:

Huge, can one-hand 2H weapons with ease.  No armor, but their size gives them some ability to shrug off damage.  No legs, so they move pretty slow and have a hard time chasing things down.

as far as the ability to go up against big monsters or beat down hordes of little guys, these guys are better than anything else I've played prior to .04

Elephant Man:

Going by the raws, these should be objectively superior to the ESM in all ways.  Bigger, can gore, grasping trunk, has legs.  Just objectively better.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 02:08:16 pm by puke »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2015, 01:56:09 pm »

The zombies created by the mummies about about the strength the typical zombie should be. They're just a nice workout for anyone with moderate skill. The zombies created by evil clouds should be much more powerful because they're so rare. And I think the necro towers have a nice blend between those extremes. Those shouldn't change, no matter how badly you want your necromancy right away.
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Aleksanderus

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2015, 02:09:21 pm »

a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
Am I the only one who thinks that zombies are easy?!
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Rumrusher

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2015, 02:35:39 pm »

The zombies created by the mummies about about the strength the typical zombie should be. They're just a nice workout for anyone with moderate skill. The zombies created by evil clouds should be much more powerful because they're so rare. And I think the necro towers have a nice blend between those extremes. Those shouldn't change, no matter how badly you want your necromancy right away.
that's because those zombies are skeletons and naked.
do note those skeletons are naked. wearing clothes = op as shit, nudist zombie skeletons = everyone okay with this.


also the one mummy spawns are just baby zombies fresh from the world, than their lock in a tower training all day brothers who kinda act as an alternate to vaults.

that said
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
Am I the only one who thinks that zombies are easy?!
you're not the only one.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2015, 02:48:33 pm »

I agree, most zombies are easy, but you get the rare one with enough meat and sinew on him to be a struggle to hack through, and then decapitation/dismemberment still doesn't take him down. The presence of one of those in an otherwise weak zombie horde is pretty terrifying, you don't have a chance unless you can separate him from the rest to deal with 1-on-1. Necro towers always have at least one of those.

And I also agree that webbing is seriously imba. The rate and spread is just stupid, there's not a single counter to it.
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puke

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2015, 02:55:33 pm »

so, in the new update with the zombie nerf, does the strength bonus from zombification and vamping no longer add physical size like it used to?

Part of the old OP-ness, if I understand correctly, was that the strength boost added muscle mass which increased a creatures physical size and made it harder to cut through.  This is why speed would sometimes drop after vampification; the added size/bulk slowed a creature down even after the strength boost.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2015, 03:03:51 pm »

I agree, most zombies are easy, but you get the rare one with enough meat and sinew on him to be a struggle to hack through, and then decapitation/dismemberment still doesn't take him down. The presence of one of those in an otherwise weak zombie horde is pretty terrifying, you don't have a chance unless you can separate him from the rest to deal with 1-on-1. Necro towers always have at least one of those.

And I also agree that webbing is seriously imba. The rate and spread is just stupid, there's not a single counter to it.
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
if anything of my spider escapades goblins > spiders.
that said I think this is where my views get bias as I kinda go if I can't beat them, join them in adventure mode like bronze colossus.
which brings back to the topic, that one person who modded in sperm whalemen could have walk themselves into an evil biome and gotten murked leading to being even stronger sperm whalemen to take on those reanimated zombies...or walk past and gotten the tome/book. wonder if we getting blood and/or amethystmen playable in the next update?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 03:08:32 pm by Rumrusher »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2015, 03:12:52 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 03:17:47 pm by Uzu Bash »
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Rumrusher

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2015, 04:40:55 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.

Though I have to say one was field advantage and the other is ambushed.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2015, 04:57:06 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.
I missed the part of the story where you describe their webbing. They must have had webbing if you thought there was a point to mentioning it. How about fireballs? Are those 3 the only demons you have faced? Because I've seen and soloed a wide variety, but those aren't relevant to this point: Webbing Is IMBA.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2015, 05:22:26 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.
I missed the part of the story where you describe their webbing. They must have had webbing if you thought there was a point to mentioning it. How about fireballs? Are those 3 the only demons you have faced? Because I've seen and soloed a wide variety, but those aren't relevant to this point: Webbing Is IMBA.
those demons had no webbing, they just walk up and gored loads of stuff.  good thing spider people are immune to webbing.
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Arcvasti

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2015, 05:59:36 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.

Preliminary testing indicates that spider people have [WEBIMMUNE], letting them walk through webs with impunity.



Testing in arena mode, spider people don't stop getting more ridiculous. They have [NO_PAIN], no bones to chip, no throat to strangle. That plus their ability to use a bunch of shields at once makes them absurdly robust, even with their small size.

Arena testing of elephant seal men against brown recluse men[Proficient in all relevant skills, each wielding an iron shortsword. Brown recluse man gets four shields, because that's how many adventurer brown recluse men spawn with] reveals brown recluse men win nearly every time. Elephant seal men's raw strength lets them pulp any body part even with blade slaps, but they can rarely land that hit somewhere useful and have a hard time getting past the shield wall. On the other hand, Brown Recluse men often fracture or chip bones when they hit and only have to get through ONE shield. Assuming control of the elephant seal man, I was able to win by getting a lucky hit on the weapon arm and then pulping all four shield arms. I also won as the brown recluse man by stabbing whichever body part was easiest to hit until my opponent gave into pain and then stabbing the head until I finally won. The brown recluse men still die a third of the time[Including straight victories from the Elephant Seal men] from post-victory blood loss. Giving the elephant seal man a hammer instead of a short sword didn't change matters much either, despite it being better suited to their awesome strength and size.



Giant tortoise men, on the other hand, performed significantly better, winning most of their fights against brown recluse men. The main cause of why appears to be their much increased resistance to giving in to pain. Whereas one strike would cripple an elephant seal man, the giant tortoise men seem much more resistant to giving into pain, perhaps because of how flippers are processed bonewise. With them, if neither side landed an immediately lethal blow, the brown recluse men would usually bleed out before they could get a fatal shot on their opponent. Interestingly, none of the giant tortoise men retracted into their shell whatsoever, unless I assumed control and made them do it. Giving both sides steel weapons favourised the brown recluse men, since they could now sometimes make the giant tortoise men give into pain. The giant tortoise men still won most of the time, however.

Giant tortoise men against elephant seal men is a toss-up though. Neither side has any real advantage, as far as I can tell.

Giant cave spiders, for reference, easily kill elephant seal men. I was able to defeat one as a giant tortoise man by retreating into my shell and waiting until the spider fell unconscious from exhaustion before killing it. Brown recluse men easily kill giant cave spiders.



These results demonstrate the following:

-Elephant seal men, while somewhat larger and stronger then giant tortoise men, are nonetheless less robust and more prone to giving in to pain.
-Brown recluse men, despite having many arms and numerous useful tags like [NO_PAIN] and [WEBIMMUNE], suffer due to their small size.
-Giant tortoise men are large, strong and robust with the potent ability to withdraw into their shell. All in all, pretty good with no glaring disadvantages.

Honestly, despite my personal preference for brown recluse men, giant tortoise men seem to be the best here.
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2015, 06:04:46 pm »

What about elephant men though? They're bigger, have powerful tusk attacks, and I think I heard that they get a third grasp in their trunk.
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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2015, 06:09:06 pm »

What about elephant men though? They're bigger, have powerful tusk attacks, and I think I heard that they get a third grasp in their trunk.

Yeah, they'd probably push out elephant seal men completely for top three animal characters. An extra shield, more sharp things and more size and strength would make them pretty ridiculous. Still vulnerable to webbers and giving into pain, but otherwise really good.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2015, 06:11:08 pm »

the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.

Preliminary testing indicates that spider people have [WEBIMMUNE], letting them walk through webs with impunity.



Testing in arena mode, spider people don't stop getting more ridiculous. They have [NO_PAIN], no bones to chip, no throat to strangle. That plus their ability to use a bunch of shields at once makes them absurdly robust, even with their small size.

Arena testing of elephant seal men against brown recluse men[Proficient in all relevant skills, each wielding an iron shortsword. Brown recluse man gets four shields, because that's how many adventurer brown recluse men spawn with] reveals brown recluse men win nearly every time. Elephant seal men's raw strength lets them pulp any body part even with blade slaps, but they can rarely land that hit somewhere useful and have a hard time getting past the shield wall. On the other hand, Brown Recluse men often fracture or chip bones when they hit and only have to get through ONE shield. Assuming control of the elephant seal man, I was able to win by getting a lucky hit on the weapon arm and then pulping all four shield arms. I also won as the brown recluse man by stabbing whichever body part was easiest to hit until my opponent gave into pain and then stabbing the head until I finally won. The brown recluse men still die a third of the time[Including straight victories from the Elephant Seal men] from post-victory blood loss. Giving the elephant seal man a hammer instead of a short sword didn't change matters much either, despite it being better suited to their awesome strength and size.



Giant tortoise men, on the other hand, performed significantly better, winning most of their fights against brown recluse men. The main cause of why appears to be their much increased resistance to giving in to pain. Whereas one strike would cripple an elephant seal man, the giant tortoise men seem much more resistant to giving into pain, perhaps because of how flippers are processed bonewise. With them, if neither side landed an immediately lethal blow, the brown recluse men would usually bleed out before they could get a fatal shot on their opponent. Interestingly, none of the giant tortoise men retracted into their shell whatsoever, unless I assumed control and made them do it. Giving both sides steel weapons favourised the brown recluse men, since they could now sometimes make the giant tortoise men give into pain. The giant tortoise men still won most of the time, however.

Giant tortoise men against elephant seal men is a toss-up though. Neither side has any real advantage, as far as I can tell.

Giant cave spiders, for reference, easily kill elephant seal men. I was able to defeat one as a giant tortoise man by retreating into my shell and waiting until the spider fell unconscious from exhaustion before killing it. Brown recluse men easily kill giant cave spiders.



These results demonstrate the following:

-Elephant seal men, while somewhat larger and stronger then giant tortoise men, are nonetheless less robust and more prone to giving in to pain.
-Brown recluse men, despite having many arms and numerous useful tags like [NO_PAIN] and [WEBIMMUNE], suffer due to their small size.
-Giant tortoise men are large, strong and robust with the potent ability to withdraw into their shell. All in all, pretty good with no glaring disadvantages.

Honestly, despite my personal preference for brown recluse men, giant tortoise men seem to be the best here.

elephant seal men, pros : huge, can backpack just about everything, if you boost sneak you get by far. cons : huge so sneaking gonna be tricky, can take pain so you could pass out and die to someone breaking your leg, if you don't dump points into any attack you're not going to capitalize on the size boost.
Spider folks, pros : safe from bogeymen, don't stun, can't feel pain, immune to own race webs holds many weapons. Cons : small and cute, can't shoot webs , while they can heal fast they have a small damage thresh-hold, goblins can one punch you to death in wonderful ways, while safe from bogeyman if they provoke any attack they will get chumped.

Turtle folk : pros: peasants/Heroes/demigods in a half shell, Turtle power. Cons: human warlords don't cut them any slack.
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