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Author Topic: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information  (Read 39394 times)

Halnoth

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #135 on: March 09, 2016, 11:10:39 pm »

Bump!

Is !!science!! still being done on dwarven scientists? I'm about to start a new fortress, and I'm intending to build a giant library.

ya but the work is slow going since my play time is limited.
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slashnul

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2016, 12:43:33 am »

I could give some observations but I havent done any testing.  I get the feeling that scholars are fed discoveries and impulses to write according to the world year and your civilization's progression in research fields... essentially ensuring that your fort has a steady stream of library-happy-thoughts over time... regardless of what clods you cobble together to act as scholars.

Just a hunch though.
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Button

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2016, 11:09:20 am »

I recommend not doing !!science!! on libraries, as paper is notoriously flammable.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2016, 08:06:43 pm »

I could give some observations but I havent done any testing.  I get the feeling that scholars are fed discoveries and impulses to write according to the world year and your civilization's progression in research fields... essentially ensuring that your fort has a steady stream of library-happy-thoughts over time... regardless of what clods you cobble together to act as scholars.

Just a hunch though.

That's definitely possible. My <100 year world gen forts don't produce much other than autobiographies, letters, and tales of the fortress.
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martinuzz

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2016, 05:15:09 pm »

Just discovered another type of book, the encyclopedia:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also: facepalm. I just thought of using a manager-restricted lever to draw dwarves into the library for scholarly duties, instead of what I've been painstakingly trying to accomplish with squad movement orders. Lever pulling does snap dwarves out of green tavern and temple jobs without delay. So much more effective, and precise. Now why didn't I think of that sooner.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 05:55:24 pm by martinuzz »
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levraininjaneer

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2016, 06:17:52 am »

Hi

I just read through all of Master Halnoth's post and some of the rest. First off: big kudo's for all Halnoth's work and sharing.

There's some things going back and forth and I'd like to confirm what the final word is (yay or nay)

1. The frequency at which a scholar writes book is determined by his Academic skill (e.g Mathematician).
2. Nonetheless, any scholar will eventually write a book.
3. Increasing an Academic skill is nearly impossible as only about 30 Exp can be gained by any of the relevant activities, and all of these activities take very long.
4. The quality of a written work's content is not affected by the Academic skill
5. The quality of a written work's content is affected by the Writer skill (which also explains why the skill increases when books are writing).
6. The trade value of the written work is affected by the quality of the materials used.


Other important notes in summary form:
a) Reading books does not give xp toward anything other than reading and student
b) Master/Apprentice relationships only form if Master has skill 10+ and Apprentice lower


To maximize profit from producing books as a trade good: 
Skill priorities = 1. high academic skill, 2. writer skill
More scholars = more books/scrolls
Higher value writing materials = more profit
Master/Apprentance relationships can be helpful as this is the only way to effectively increase a dwarf's academic knowledge level, which will, in turn increase his book production frequency. For this, teacher/student would be very useful. See note at bottom.

Happiness
Helps dwarven happiness levels by providing reading and meeting "needs". You probably don't need many books to achieve this, and you can maybe even buy many of them.
Potentially helps specifically scholars to be happy as they could derive happy thoughts from scholarly activities, such as making a breakthrough. There are, however, probably more effective conventional professions, such as the military or crafting to achieve this.

Since migrant great academics all usually have skill level 3 in one weapon and level 1 in other combat (e.g. dodging), it would be good to make them a milita captain for awhile (with less skilled dwarves) so they can improve their teaching. Once this is at a satisfactory level, he can be made  a scholar. At this point, a soldier who has some good student levels BUT not high skill in another area could also be made a scholar: this should set the stage for an effective Master/Apprentice and the transfer of the academic skill.
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Janbure

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #141 on: May 24, 2016, 09:03:15 am »

I've read the topic, more or less, but I still didn't figure it out how a book is written.
Everytime I produce a quire it's almost immediatly written but is always a different subject and if I bind it will be a 1 page book.
Do the scribe expand this books or they stay that way forever? If so how come that I get 200+ pages books from visitors and caravans?
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levraininjaneer

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2016, 10:41:59 am »

I'm slightly confused about this too. As I understand it, a quire is not just one page, but 25. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_paper_quantity#Quire

So a book written by a dwarf in your fortress should have about 25 pages.
I think that a codex and a book is really the same thing, in game terms. Which is a bit silly, since, some books have interesting titles (in the trade screen), while others are just codices, and if you read their description it says that it's a book, and that some contain the mysteries of life and death (or something).

I don't think you can bind multiple quires into one book, though.
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Halnoth

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2016, 11:12:55 pm »

I'm slightly confused about this too. As I understand it, a quire is not just one page, but 25. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_paper_quantity#Quire

So a book written by a dwarf in your fortress should have about 25 pages.
I think that a codex and a book is really the same thing, in game terms. Which is a bit silly, since, some books have interesting titles (in the trade screen), while others are just codices, and if you read their description it says that it's a book, and that some contain the mysteries of life and death (or something).

I don't think you can bind multiple quires into one book, though.

In the trade screen scrolls have titles, codices are always listed as codices.

I don't know what influences book length. Is it topic? I haven't noticed a correlation.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2016, 11:30:54 pm »

For those who put legendary mechanics in libraries, are the books written by them in any way better than ones written by, say, novice astronomers?

The longer post above suggests no, but that it might be still rewarding to have more scholards become residents as students in the fortress.

levraininjaneer

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #145 on: May 26, 2016, 02:22:36 am »

Hail, Halnoth

It is good to see that you are still around.

Can you share your thoughts on the benefits of a good library for a fort? I'm not sure my understanding of that is complete.
It is also with great anticipation that I await my first visiting Scholar to mine. Wondering when that will happen.
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Halnoth

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #146 on: May 27, 2016, 01:10:31 am »

Hail, Halnoth

It is good to see that you are still around.

Can you share your thoughts on the benefits of a good library for a fort? I'm not sure my understanding of that is complete.
It is also with great anticipation that I await my first visiting Scholar to mine. Wondering when that will happen.

Well aside from the novelty of book writing there are a couple benefits:

1. Help prevent skill rust for doctors and mechanics.

2. Satisfy the need for abstract thought.

As well you can do some things like have a fort of necromancers or pass on values to your populace.

Everything else is really just interesting fluff. In my opinion, libraries are a very nice distraction and a worthwhile addition to any fort.

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Janbure

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2016, 02:37:56 pm »

I'm slightly confused about this too. As I understand it, a quire is not just one page, but 25. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_paper_quantity#Quire

So a book written by a dwarf in your fortress should have about 25 pages.
I think that a codex and a book is really the same thing, in game terms. Which is a bit silly, since, some books have interesting titles (in the trade screen), while others are just codices, and if you read their description it says that it's a book, and that some contain the mysteries of life and death (or something).

I don't think you can bind multiple quires into one book, though.

Still a codex bind from a quire is always a 1 page *book type
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Repseki

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #148 on: May 29, 2016, 06:05:36 am »

Glad I found this thread, very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to figure it out.

Definitely gonna have to try and set one up when I get around to starting my next fort. I already plan on having a somewhat minecart heavy hauling system, so I might aim for a Medical Library after I have a few future scholars perform some butchery training on any dwarves injured while setting it up.

Anyone know retiring an adventurer, possibly with some non-secret related texts like autobiographies, will let a reclaimed fort build statues/etc about the events of that adventurer? (I haven't actually made a fort since the whole Library/Tavern/Temple and specifying statue/etc subject stuff was put in, so I've got a bunch of stuff to play around with.)

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taptap

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Re: Research: Scrolls vs. Codices and other Library Information
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2016, 02:27:25 am »

Thx for sharing.

Books - I have trouble to get my hands on sufficient books. I have seen caravans with scrolls (but they seem empty on inspection), but never with books. (It is a micro world in year 35 though.) I also had no visiting scholar, I had a few other visitors to my tavern (a gorlak bard and a few human soldiers). I did embark with a lot of academic skills (fluid and optical engineers, astronomer and a writer-poet and got an adept diagnostician later), but while this decided the topic of their ponderings and discussions, the few books written are completely unrelated (2 on the fort itself, 1 novel).

Writing - The one option I see is mass copying the few books I have to increase writing skill (and hopefully this helps book production along later on).

Teaching / student etc. - I tried crosstraining them in the military first, they may be relevant for teacher / student situations later, but they rust = are not used for discussions / ponderings I have now.

Disciplines - each scholar seems to initiate discussions / ponderings in exactly one field, they take part in other discussions, but they only initiate in one field it seems. I embarked with a fluid engineer / mechanic, but I had nothing on fluid engineering within years, no discussion, no pondering, nothing. Similarly with the mathematician - astronomer. Math rusts away while he discusses and ponders star charts.
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