Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[EuchreJack]

Plot vs characters based

That's the biggest dilemma I have here. I see two ways to approach the audience:
1) Plot based - the storyline is generated, then it's filled with personas if/when needed
2) Characters based - there is an existing cast of characters and then the game tries to generate a plot to fit those characters

Also I have a sight problem with characters. They are used as the plot devices (audience) and as 4X mechanic (governors giving bonus to planets, exactly 9 admirals one per fleet). And honestly that's kind of troublesome to me. Like a governor dying (4X mechanic) in a middle of a plot... I mean, the 4X mechanic and the plot mechanic is not the most compatible here and goes into way with each other. Like in the mechanic I can't have characters like "Chief of police" (there is no way I could implement police department mechanic and all other mechanics for other minor positions that do not relate to the core 4X mechanic) while in the plot there is no problem introducing such persona.
I'm thinking maybe I should split the cast, one group is the 4X personas (governors, commanders, admirals) and they can die etc, the other would be story cast (imperial court, factions, advisors) and they would be immortal and interact with story/audience part of the game only?

What you need is families.  Either Crusader King style, where they can become mini-factions with multiple family members in the same game, or alternatively what I would refer to as "Successor Style".

Successor Style would be where, when a character in an event dies, they are replaced by a relative.  That would keep your 4X personas able to die and be story cast.

[LordArchibald]

Conversely, what if a player is involved in a plot and decides to resolve the plot by eliminating key individuals outside of the audience event? That seems like a logical and reasonable solution to me; real concerns intervene and giving characters "plot armor" might reduce immersion.

That said, King of Dragon Pass handled their audience mechanic by anonymizing the population and making the characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay, so any one of your 12 warriors could be the special veteran who escaped from the south you accepted 6 months ago, and you'd just lose a warrior if she was killed in a subsequent by assassins from the king she abandoned.

Ugh... that would really mess things up. I definitely don't want the player/game to kill a storyline character. Totally impossible to balance and tons of other problems. "Characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay" sounds much more appealing to me

What you need is families.  Either Crusader King style, where they can become mini-factions with multiple family members in the same game, or alternatively what I would refer to as "Successor Style".

Successor Style would be where, when a character in an event dies, they are replaced by a relative.  That would keep your 4X personas able to die and be story cast.

Families & nobles are not exactly within the theme of this particular game. I mean, I try to simulate an old bureaucratic empire. The Emperor was cloned/engineered for the purpose of becoming the Emperor, his primary right to rule comes from the ultimate genes used to his cloning (basicly the society decided they wanted the emperor and engineered one - a slight humouristic twist). Also the Emperor is considered immortal (within span of the game at least).

Anyway, I try to stay away from nobles and dynasties and too much feudal stuff (for this particular game, overall the suggestion is good). Instead I want bureaucrats, officials, imperial court, factions, mega corporations.

Hostorically/thematic wise I aim more into the direction of Emperor of China rather than european feudal nobles/aristocracy.

[Mephansteras]

Well, you can still go the CKII style factions/intrigue without it being feudal. Most of that has more to do with relationships between people and general competencies in various areas. They USE the feudal system as part of their vying for power/prestige/money, but it could just as easily be courtiers and bureaucrats instead of nobles. Politics is politics no matter where you go, it's just the specifics that change.

[EuchreJack]

Conversely, what if a player is involved in a plot and decides to resolve the plot by eliminating key individuals outside of the audience event? That seems like a logical and reasonable solution to me; real concerns intervene and giving characters "plot armor" might reduce immersion.

That said, King of Dragon Pass handled their audience mechanic by anonymizing the population and making the characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay, so any one of your 12 warriors could be the special veteran who escaped from the south you accepted 6 months ago, and you'd just lose a warrior if she was killed in a subsequent by assassins from the king she abandoned.

Ugh... that would really mess things up. I definitely don't want the player/game to kill a storyline character. Totally impossible to balance and tons of other problems. "Characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay" sounds much more appealing to me

What you need is families.  Either Crusader King style, where they can become mini-factions with multiple family members in the same game, or alternatively what I would refer to as "Successor Style".

Successor Style would be where, when a character in an event dies, they are replaced by a relative.  That would keep your 4X personas able to die and be story cast.

Families & nobles are not exactly within the theme of this particular game. I mean, I try to simulate an old bureaucratic empire. The Emperor was cloned/engineered for the purpose of becoming the Emperor, his primary right to rule comes from the ultimate genes used to his cloning (basicly the society decided they wanted the emperor and engineered one - a slight humouristic twist). Also the Emperor is considered immortal (within span of the game at least).

Anyway, I try to stay away from nobles and dynasties and too much feudal stuff (for this particular game, overall the suggestion is good). Instead I want bureaucrats, officials, imperial court, factions, mega corporations.

Hostorically/thematic wise I aim more into the direction of Emperor of China rather than european feudal nobles/aristocracy.

Thematically, you could still combine event characters and 4x characters by tracking via position rather than name.  Theory being that whenever the current Governor of Alpha Centauri dies, his successor takes over leadership of the Evil Plot of Alpha Centauri.  It would make sense that a person not only having a powerful position but also enough authority to lead an Empire-wide plot would be able to ensure his or her successor was someone willing to continue his or her plot.

Additionally, the fight of the player to prevent a more Feudal system would also add favor.  In any society, it is relatively common for families to strive to collect Familial power at the expense of the State.  What would the player do when a General's son follows his father into the Stormtroopers?  And if that General's son was actually talented and loyal, it would be an even harder decision.  One would have to decide between risking a precedent of nepotism versus the loss of a qualified officer.

[ductape]

Sorry I didn't read through the whole thread so if someone suggested this then consider this a +1

I would love to see something like King of Dragon Pass for audiences and extra bits of intrigue.

Thea: The Awakening is doing something awesome with this, for reference.

EDIT: I see someone DID mention it, but not how I meant. I don't mean to implement it the way KoDP did, I mean to have story events with choices that affect the player, like all of the events that happen in KoDP.

[LordArchibald]

You know, I was thinking, maybe make it group based? You have factions/organizations that support you or not and characters are merely representatives of those groups.

Then based on your standing with that group (if they support you) and how string the group is (significant, insignificant) you get benouses/penalties and also possibly some events and storylines. Using audience you could manipulate the groups support and power.

I would even consider having a certain standing with a certain number of groups a part of the victory condition...

Sorry I didn't read through the whole thread so if someone suggested this then consider this a +1

On the contrary, it's helpful if people give the same suggestion, it allows me to gauge how tasty a specific feature iis in the eyes of the player

I would love to see something like King of Dragon Pass for audiences and extra bits of intrigue.

Thea: The Awakening is doing something awesome with this, for reference.

EDIT: I see someone DID mention it, but not how I meant. I don't mean to implement it the way KoDP did, I mean to have story events with choices that affect the player, like all of the events that happen in KoDP.

Hmm, just bought KoDP and I have mixed feelings. I mean, you don't have a clue how the choices you see will affect the gameplay... I'm not sure...

[Zangi]

Different factions are what you need if you don't want to put much stock into officers.

As for KoDP events, you don't need to follow it exactly, you can always give players a good idea of what your choices will effect.  You have a huge empire and its many advisers/experts to call upon, unlike a small tribe of people with limited expertise...

[EuchreJack]

I would love to see something like King of Dragon Pass for audiences and extra bits of intrigue.

Thea: The Awakening is doing something awesome with this, for reference.

EDIT: I see someone DID mention it, but not how I meant. I don't mean to implement it the way KoDP did, I mean to have story events with choices that affect the player, like all of the events that happen in KoDP.

Hmm, just bought KoDP and I have mixed feelings. I mean, you don't have a clue how the choices you see will affect the gameplay... I'm not sure...

Sadly, if you consult the Wiki, you know EXACTLY how each event will affect gameplay.  The game is based upon semi-randomly-selected fixed event chains.  If you fiddle with it a bit and consult its wiki it will make more sense.

[Mephansteras]

Hmm, you know what would be a cool/useful mechanic? Having the advisers not only give some advice about something, but giving you a "make it so" button to issue the appropriate orders.

Let's say that one of them really wants additional ground defenses on the planets bordering a hostile neighbor. Rather than just saying it's a good idea and going off to micromanage it yourself, you could say yes and have him go issue the appropriate orders (whereupon the AI would build ground defenses to shore up any weak points along that border as necessary).

[Zangi]

Hmm, you know what would be a cool/useful mechanic? Having the advisers not only give some advice about something, but giving you a "make it so" button to issue the appropriate orders.

Let's say that one of them really wants additional ground defenses on the planets bordering a hostile neighbor. Rather than just saying it's a good idea and going off to micromanage it yourself, you could say yes and have him go issue the appropriate orders (whereupon the AI would build ground defenses to shore up any weak points along that border as necessary).

Hilarity ensues when you have an officer with a competence of 1. 

[Mephansteras]

Hmm, you know what would be a cool/useful mechanic? Having the advisers not only give some advice about something, but giving you a "make it so" button to issue the appropriate orders.

Let's say that one of them really wants additional ground defenses on the planets bordering a hostile neighbor. Rather than just saying it's a good idea and going off to micromanage it yourself, you could say yes and have him go issue the appropriate orders (whereupon the AI would build ground defenses to shore up any weak points along that border as necessary).

Hilarity ensues when you have an officer with a competence of 1. 

Well, it does pay to look at who you're taking advice from

[Cruxador]

That's the biggest dilemma I have here. I see two ways to approach the audience:
1) Plot based - the storyline is generated, then it's filled with personas if/when needed
2) Characters based - there is an existing cast of characters and then the game tries to generate a plot to fit those characters

Why not both? Generate an initial plot framework, find appropriate characters, and determine details based on them? Let subplots occur based purely on characters, and allow plots to generate new characters if there isn't a suitable individual available. The best plots for this kind of game are the most modular, so they can be different every time.

I'm thinking maybe I should split the cast, one group is the 4X personas (governors, commanders, admirals) and they can die etc, the other would be story cast (imperial court, factions, advisors) and they would be immortal and interact with story/audience part of the game only?

I'm thinking this is a bad idea. It makes these entities not matter. Let a character be a character. Generally, it's fine if someone dies during a plot. Just make sure that the plot can survive and account for that, either by having part of the plot fail or by another character stepping up, if that makes sense. Or if neither is reasonably possible, then flag that character to be temporarily immortal until his plot prominence is reduced.

Ugh... that would really mess things up. I definitely don't want the player/game to kill a storyline character. Totally impossible to balance and tons of other problems.

Crusader Kings has been mentioned a bunch of times and they balance it fine.

"Characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay" sounds much more appealing to me

You can have characters like that, of course. But if none of the gameplay-related characters are part of events, what's the point in having them?

Anyway, I try to stay away from nobles and dynasties and too much feudal stuff (for this particular game, overall the suggestion is good). Instead I want bureaucrats, officials, imperial court, factions, mega corporations.

But the leaders and important figures in those frameworks have successors too. They don't just die and never get replaced.

You know, I was thinking, maybe make it group based? You have factions/organizations that support you or not and characters are merely representatives of those groups.

This is a good idea, to the extent that I kind of thought it was already a given. No man is an island and few people have the power to do anything notable on an imperial scale all by themselves.

[In KoDP]you don't have a clue how the choices you see will affect the gameplay

You have tons of clues. The event's flavor text is full of clues, generally, and your council gives you input that's nothing but clues. You don't have a clear display of what the exact numbers will be, but I would hardly call that a bad thing if the game intends to foment roleplaying, as your "feel like an emperor" game officially wants to.

[LordArchibald]

Summary so far
The storyline should be based on groups (factions/families/guilds/corporations/etc). A faction has characters but they can be replaced without harm of the storyline (with few exceptions but then those characters could be simply immortal/proxy characters).

Each group wants something and typically they fight with other groups (for imperial favour, offices, etc). It's important for the player to gain support of a least some of the key factions or severe internal problems will emerge.

Groups (factions) should have some starts, like "loyalty to the emperor", "power". Depending on group type (there could be simplier/minor groups as well that do not dvelve into imperial politics and do not have ambitions of a full blown factions, like a guild of masons, organization to spread some ideals, etc).

Still, I would not want a simple "favour faction X vs favour faction Y" audience events.

Audience choices obvious vs mysterious
That's what i wonder about, should I give a clear explanation what each audience choice will do? Or not? Note it's primarily 4X (strategy), not an RPG... so the mystery should not take over the clear understanding of the mechanics needed to win?

"Characters mentioned in events unrelated to gameplay" sounds much more appealing to me

You can have characters like that, of course. But if none of the gameplay-related characters are part of events, what's the point in having them?

They could give bonuses (like governors & admirals in most 4X). Actually, that's how it works now. You have planetary governors that grant bonuses to planets, officers that grant bonuses to military and courtiers that grant bonuses empire wide.
But I'm not extremelly happy with that setup (especially courtiers).

I was thinking along the lines: factions (abstract entities) have representatives (characters) that appear in events and audience, also factions appoint various lower rank officials (like governors, commanders) to the empire (those characters grant bonuses to the 4X side of the game). How many officials a faction has is a reflection of the faction's influence.

[darkflagrance]

Crusader Kings makes the mechanical effects of decisions explicit when you are presented with a list of choices. However, decisions are often non-deterministic: usually they will say things like 50% chance of surviving and gaining a good trait, 50% chance of dying.

You might have each choice tell the player what mechanical effect they are intended to have on the game. However, if you want to make decisions risky and still let the player have full awareness of negative consequences, you could also list the chances of negative events occurring. In addition, you could also hide potential negative events, and indicate only that there is a large or small chance of an unspecified negative random event occurring as a side-effect of a decision.

You could also have the personalities of the current guild or faction leaders add further additional effects; for example, siding with the Spacer Guild over the Trade Federation might decrease the cost of freighters but also decrease trade income. At the same time, the Spacer Guild members simulated by the game might each gain loyalty depending on each individual's personal view of the emperor, and the Trade Federations might similarly lose loyalty on a case-by-case basis. A cowardly Trade Federation leader might even gain loyalty in an attempt to further appease the emperor. On the other hand, putting a vengeful leader on the receiving end of a negative decision might set off a new storyline where she seeks revenge.

===

One idea for courtiers might be to set up Ministries (Trade, propaganda, military, navy, personnel, etc) within the imperial court. You would assign a leader of each ministry, and assign courtiers to each as underlings, and the courtiers would grant bonuses to that segment of the empire, add bonuses in relevant decisions, and potentially foment intrigue/storylines as they attempt to rise in their ministry's internal hierarchies. You might have ranks for the courtiers in each ministry so that the courtiers are constantly jockeying for position. Courtiers at the top might give higher percentages of their stats as bonuses, while courtiers at the bottom contribute almost nothing. You might even have courtiers who are bad at their jobs and decrease productivity, but must be left in place for political reasons.

[MarcAFK]

PTW .