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[scriver]

It presupposes radicalization in immigrants, which could be rooted out while doing what you said in your post, and doesn’t tar a third of the world as potential terrorists who need to be kept away at all cost.

It presupposes that muslim radicalisation happen among muslims.

If I felt superior I obviously wouldn’t need to engage you in this

Wouldn't you? It looks like you would.

Let’s explore your idea then. You can start deradicalisation programs, but how do you identify those that need to go through them? How do you get them onto the program? What should happen to someone who doesn’t complete the program successfully? How does stopping Muslim migration while doing this help?

You said we should consider the long term effects, good and bad, of our decision making on our communities. What do you think are the long term effects of your idea, which I see as stopping specifically Muslim migration and profiling what’s left for deradicalisation, correct me if I’m wrong?

Are you claiming the position that deradicalisation isn't possible? That it's impossible to tell a moderate or secular Muslim from a radical? That secularism and respect for each other is not possible to teach? You yourself talked about teaching critical thinking just a few posts ago.

As for the reason stopping Muslim migration helps, as I have already said but you've chosen to ignore, is that if Muslim migration to Europe is the source of muslim radicalisation in Europe, then adding to the numbers while you're trying to fight radical islamism goes against that aim. If you're trying to get rid of the bad apples in your apple basket, you don't keep adding new apples with new bad apples among them to the basket. You stop gathering apples until you've cleared the bad apples from basket.

Matteo Salvini wasn’t exactly an open doors guy, scriver, and he’s the reason why there are (or were, at least) ships of migrants sitting around in the Med.

Do you think the newly turned away migrants are going to go back home because you said no at the border, wherever that border may be? There’s a reason they packed up their shit and left, so if you say no, they’re going somewhere else. That’s not taking responsibility, that’s making it someone else’s problem.

If the only way to "take responsibility" to you is claiming responsibility for things that aren't your responsibility, then there will never be a way to be responsible enough.

Urge to snark rising.

You already are.

[Loud Whispers]

Today: Man beaten and burned to death after mob accused him of desecrating Quran in Bangladesh

Teenager throws molotov cocktails at police station and stabs police officer whilst shouting Allahu Akbar in muslim-majority Tatarstan

Man arrested for stabbing guard at the French Embassy in Saudi Arabia

Police foil a fourth stabbing in France

Tens of thousands of Muslims, from Pakistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian territories, poured out of prayer services to join anti-France protests on Friday, as the French president’s promise to protect the right to caricature the Prophet Muhammad continues to roil the Muslim world. Demonstrations in Pakistan’s capital Islamabad turned violent as some 2,000 people who tried to march towards the French embassy were pushed back by police firing tear gas and beating protesters with batons.

[hector13]

Welp I tried to get you to open up, I guess I’m not as great as I think I am.

Sorry for wasting your time.

[Loud Whispers]

Welp I tried to get you to open up, I guess I’m not as great as I think I am.

Sorry for wasting your time.

Communicating authenticity and sincerity is difficult without attached body language and facial expression. Online, even an expression of sincerity can seem insincere.

*EDIT
Oh yeah and also in France, Turks took to the street shouting allahu akbar and where are you armenians. This comes after Turkish protesters attacked Armenian protesters with hammers a day before.

[feelotraveller]

There's significant murk (in my mind at least) around the police shooting of the far right guy with a handgun who threatened passerbys (police + North African immigrant) in Montfavet, Avignon.  Described as a psychiatric patient who according to Europe 1 shouted 'Allahu Akbar' the incident is NOT being treated by police as terrorism.  But various reports have picked it up and added it to the list of 'Islamic Terrorism' events over the last few days.

Well that's part of what has to happen to maintain a constant spin of bad muslims = the problem, right?

[JoshuaFH]

Tens of thousands of Muslims, from Pakistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian territories, poured out of prayer services to join anti-France protests on Friday, as the French president’s promise to protect the right to caricature the Prophet Muhammad continues to roil the Muslim world. Demonstrations in Pakistan’s capital Islamabad turned violent as some 2,000 people who tried to march towards the French embassy were pushed back by police firing tear gas and beating protesters with batons.

While imposing the Muslim taboo of caricaturizing the prophet on non-Muslims is irrational normally, imposing the same restriction on a secular government that actually can't impinge on its citizens' right of expression is extraordinarily irrational and absurd. Unless I'm missing something?

[feelotraveller]

I think the whole situation is rather complex but try this on:

The incident that sparked the (latest) controversy was the showing of the charicatures in a state-run secondary school.  So ultimately the French government can be seen to be ignoring the fact that some of the students at its schools are muslim and hence is not showing due diligence/sensitivity to their religious background.* In other words is it really inappropriate to ask the govenment to be directly responsible for what goes on in its own schools?

Of course this is a somewhat different issue to the original publication in the 'free' press of the cartoons.  It is also true that popular movements quickly turn into pogroms, especially when authority figues such as Macron dig in to entrenched hardline positions.


* It should be noted the teacher in this case asked muslim students if they would like to leave the classroom first.  Still there is the issue here of exluding part of the student population from certain activities.  A more educated approach might have been to instead teach a class about that period of history where all representations of christ were banned - hence the whole lamb and fish thing.  But maybe the involvement of the modern media was an important element of the lesson (shrug), I don't know.

[voliol]

I think the intent was to show a modern example, so the students could get more into the discussion (As I believe there was one? Having a class directly telling muslim students their beliefs are wrong seems tactless). There’s no reason to actually show the picture though, as every single person in France knows about it already, and the kids who haven’t seen it can look it up after class.

[Loud Whispers]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Then in response to this, everyone decided the teacher was at fault, and more French deserved to die

[ChairmanPoo]

You know I was going to make a specific reply, but I'm going to be more generic about this topic: I stand by the values of the Enlightement, which to me it seems are under threat by both the far right, religious conservatives of all sorts, and what passes for leftist these days (which to me feels far closer to postmodernism than  to any worker's movement but that's a different topic of discussion).

As such, I don't really think "Someone is offended by/triggered by/finds blasphemous  thing X" is a valid reason to censor X. Doesnt necessarily mean I think saying X is a good thing, and won't be necessarily saying X, both because I might not agree, and because in the current  social climate you're likely to be attacked by all the above groups, or conversely, supported by one of them in hopes of making you part of their larger anti-Enlightement campaign.
I do however think people have the right to say X  to a reasonable degree (meaning: non self-contradictory degree)

[scriver]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Then in response to this, everyone decided the teacher was at fault, and more French deserved to die

The length some people will go to to apologise for religious rightwing extremists is astounding.

[feelotraveller]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

You know I was going to make a specific reply, but I'm going to be more generic about this topic: I stand by the values of the Enlightement, which to me it seems are under threat by both the far right, religious conservatives of all sorts, and what passes for leftist these days (which to me feels far closer to postmodernism than  to any worker's movement but that's a different topic of discussion).

As such, I don't really think "Someone is offended by/triggered by/finds blasphemous  thing X" is a valid reason to censor X. Doesnt necessarily mean I think saying X is a good thing, and won't be necessarily saying X, both because I might not agree, and because in the current  social climate you're likely to be attacked by all the above groups, or conversely, supported by one of them in hopes of making you part of their larger anti-Enlightement campaign.
I do however think people have the right to say X  to a reasonable degree (meaning: non self-contradictory degree)

Yeah, fuck the separation between church and state.  And bring on the kiddie pr0n, no reason to censor it just because it offends someone. Amirite?

To be more charitable there are most definitely bounds within which your above comments should operate and it depending on what we see as the 'generic topic' it may well fall outside of it.  State non-interference in religion, it seems you need reminding, is one of THE big tenets of the age of enlightenment.

What happens in the press is a different matter.  Their responsibility for fanning the flames of the War on Terror Islam is only rivalled by the role played by western governments.

[scriver]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

Nice victim blaming.

[feelotraveller]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

Nice victim blaming.

I don't know what bias leads you to that perverted conclusion.

The fact that the teacher died as an act of religious/political violence is abhorrent and never should have occured.  They did, in my opinion make a mistake but one that should have brought professional review/reprimand through their state employer and not a lynch mob.  But that is not where Macron led/is leading the issue.

[Loud Whispers]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

Nice victim blaming.

Welcome to the 21st century: a magazine staff is executed for blasphemy, and five years later a French teacher brings up the lesson on freedom of expression & whether blasphemy warrants death. As a result he is assassinated, after students were paid to identify him, his severed head left on the street. The French President comes out in support of the murdered teacher in defence of France's enlightenment values; in response four more attacks are launched on the same day in which more innocent people are knifed to death, and two embassies attacked, alongside multiple demonstrations globally across the muslim world calling for boycotts and attacks on France.
On the same day, Turks look for Armenians to lynch on the streets of France, a man is burned to death in a Muslim majority country for blasphemy and the Russians also get attacked.

There is a stark difference in perspectives ITT which just seems insurmountable to cross

*EDIT
Btw it has now come to public light that the Church attacker arrived in France from Tunisia days before launching the attack via boat through Italy. How long until the southern Europeans decide to stop letting in people who hate Europeans? Maybe never, maybe today
Narenda Modhi comes out in support of Macron after Pakistan and Bangladesh came out in opposition