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[scriver]

I think the problem is the teacher was beheaded

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

Nice victim blaming.

I don't know what bias leads you to that perverted conclusion.

It's probably my bias against religious rightwing extremism and bias against people being murdered for "heresy". Those are pretty sound biases to have.

The fact that the teacher died as an act of religious/political violence is abhorrent and never should have occured.  They did, in my opinion make a mistake but one that should have brought professional review/reprimand through their state employer and not a lynch mob.  But that is not where Macron led/is leading the issue.

So you are saying that the state should enforce heresy laws on behalf of the religious right? You just mentioned separation of church and state above, do you even know what that means?

[feelotraveller]

That has nothing to do with you coming to the conclusion of 'victim blaming'.  Strangely enough you skip over me sharing the view that heresy should not be a reason for death.  Nobody has said anything about enforcing heresy laws (other than you).  The call is for the state not to favour or promulgate one religion over another in its own institutions.  It is a corrollary of a state religion not being taught in schools.  The fact that raising that as a reasonable thing to do somehow brings out the nasty soundbites of (anti-)religious zealouts amuses me highly.  And beyond anything I was suggesting it as a diplomatic course Macron could have taken, even in the more measured/mealy-mouthed governmental form of 'establishing an inquiry into the matter'.  Yes minister.  That would not have sealed things but it would not have inflamed nations across the globe and would have allowed an in depth rational surveil of the connected issues - instead of us asking, how long until this happens again?


I preferred the several days older LW who was prepared to investigate the causes of things, at least somewhat, but that's just me I guess. The one who said:

Whereas our most violent and radicalised young'uns, tend to be from families that are well-educated, wealthier than most of the country, born in the country and well-integrated with good jobs and social networks - but prone to depression and viewed society very critically.

In case of a hopefully imminent return can I recommend this article even if its a few years old now:
https://insidestory.org.au/what-is-the-driving-force-behind-jihadist-terrorism/
Some out-takes

radicalisation is a youth revolt against society, articulated on an Islamic religious narrative of jihad

Frustration and resentment against society seems to be the only “psychological” trait often shared.

jihad is the only cause on the global market. If you kill in silence, it will be reported by the local newspaper; if you kill yelling “Allahuakbar,” you are sure to make the national headlines.

The priority, beyond building a more sophisticated intelligence system, is to debunk the narrative of heroism [...] to let Islam in Europe appear as a “normal” religion. In other words, the management of Islam should not be identified as a security issue first: in this case it will reinforce the fascination of “rebels looking for a cause” towards what is constructed by the West as the archenemy. Instead of exceptionalising, we should normalise.

The fact that many of the goverments across the muslim world are highly critical of France on this should at least give us pause for thought.  (Some like Erdogan are just going to be arses anyway but still...) 

[ChairmanPoo]

You know I was going to make a specific reply, but I'm going to be more generic about this topic: I stand by the values of the Enlightement, which to me it seems are under threat by both the far right, religious conservatives of all sorts, and what passes for leftist these days (which to me feels far closer to postmodernism than  to any worker's movement but that's a different topic of discussion).

As such, I don't really think "Someone is offended by/triggered by/finds blasphemous  thing X" is a valid reason to censor X. Doesnt necessarily mean I think saying X is a good thing, and won't be necessarily saying X, both because I might not agree, and because in the current  social climate you're likely to be attacked by all the above groups, or conversely, supported by one of them in hopes of making you part of their larger anti-Enlightement campaign.
I do however think people have the right to say X  to a reasonable degree (meaning: non self-contradictory degree)

Yeah, fuck the separation between church and state.  And bring on the kiddie pr0n, no reason to censor it just because it offends someone. Amirite?

You´re not very smart.

[scriver]

That has nothing to do with you coming to the conclusion of 'victim blaming'.

You:

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

"If he didn't want to be killed he shouldn't have shown that picture".

Nobody has said anything about enforcing heresy laws (other than you).  The call is for the state not to favour or promulgate one religion over another in its own institutions.

You:

They did, in my opinion make a mistake but one that should have brought professional review/reprimand through their state employer and not a lynch mob.

"He should have been punished for showing a heretic picture in class".

The call is for the state not to favour or promulgate one religion over another in its own institutions.  It is a corrollary of a state religion not being taught in schools.

And how is not allowing him to show a heretic picture in school not favouring a religion?

The fact that many of the goverments across the muslim world are highly critical of France on this should at least give us pause for thought

Yes, it should, but not in the way you think. Those are religious right-wing governments. You look at those governments and see if that is company you want to find yourself in.

[voliol]

The fact that many of the goverments across the muslim world are highly critical of France on this should at least give us pause for thought

Yes, it should, but not in the way you think. Those are religious right-wing governments. You look at those governments and see if that is company you want to find yourself in.

Funnily (?) enough here's an article with Macron hugging Modi[1][2], another leader of a religious right-wing government. Modi just happens to dislike Muslims as well, which makes him a welcome ally.

[1]Not a new picture I'm sure, but nothing in the article implies their relationship isn't as hearty still.
[2]Thanks, LW.

[scriver]

The fact that many of the goverments across the muslim world are highly critical of France on this should at least give us pause for thought

Yes, it should, but not in the way you think. Those are religious right-wing governments. You look at those governments and see if that is company you want to find yourself in.

Funnily (?) enough here's an article with Macron hugging Modi[1][2], another leader of a religious right-wing government. Modi just happens to dislike Muslims as well, which makes him a welcome ally.

[1]Not a new picture I'm sure, but nothing in the article implies their relationship isn't as hearty still.
[2]Thanks, LW.

And here's a picture of him hugging the Pope, and one of him hugging Merkel, two other religious right wing leaders.

[hector13]

What’s your point there scriver?

[scriver]

Politicians hug.

[ChairmanPoo]

So do drunkards.

[feelotraveller]

That has nothing to do with you coming to the conclusion of 'victim blaming'.

You:

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

"If he didn't want to be killed he shouldn't have shown that picture".

I was replying directly to Loud Whispers, agreeing that it was a problem that he was beheaded but pointing out that there was a context here that LW was ignoring.  It is a problem to trample all over peoples deeply held beliefs in a state school setting.  Sure the reaction was totally over the top but it remains a bad judgement call on the part of the teacher.  Just like if I walk into the darkest alley in the seediest part of town I don't deserve to be raped/mugged/murdered but it would still be a mistake to do so (barring other very good reasons for needing to do so.)

Nobody has said anything about enforcing heresy laws (other than you).  The call is for the state not to favour or promulgate one religion over another in its own institutions.

You:

They did, in my opinion make a mistake but one that should have brought professional review/reprimand through their state employer and not a lynch mob.

"He should have been punished for showing a heretic picture in class".

The government should hold its teachers to account for doing stupid things in their professional roles.  It is my personal opinion that a reprimand (which is hardly a 'punishment' in the strong sense of the word) would be in order according to what I know/knew about the circumstances, but a review which understood more may well have led to no action, which is why the backslash.  This is not about 'heresy' but common sense and decency.  I hardly suggested murdering him, or even firing him would be appropirate courses of action.

The call is for the state not to favour or promulgate one religion over another in its own institutions.  It is a corrollary of a state religion not being taught in schools.

And how is not allowing him to show a heretic picture in school not favouring a religion?

Because there is no requirement to show it.  It is not specific but similar to not allowing him to show pornography.  Why must everything be allowed to be shown when it is known to be deeply offensive to some.  As was suggested above there was no reason to show it since everybody in france already knew about it.

[scriver]

So, summed up, you do believe that the state should enforce heresy laws because heresy upsets people.

[feelotraveller]

No.  It really is pointless trying to talk to you about this.

[scriver]

Yes, trying to convince me with apologism for religious right-wing fundamentalists is pretty pointless.

[martinuzz]

I don't see why a teacher who is trying to teach his students about how our western secular society came to exist through certain freedoms, like for example satire in the form of cartoons that ridicule <insert politician, prophet or dogma here>, should be reprimanded.

Religious tolerance only exists when no one tries to forcibly impose their beliefs on others, and that includes trying to impose censorship on what can and what cannot be mocked.



 

[JoshuaFH]

That has nothing to do with you coming to the conclusion of 'victim blaming'.

You:

Indeed, it is a big problem that the teacher was beheaded.  But don't feign blissful ignorance, it wasn't just some random shit but rather caused by a specific act.

"If he didn't want to be killed he shouldn't have shown that picture".

I was replying directly to Loud Whispers, agreeing that it was a problem that he was beheaded but pointing out that there was a context here that LW was ignoring.  It is a problem to trample all over peoples deeply held beliefs in a state school setting.  Sure the reaction was totally over the top but it remains a bad judgement call on the part of the teacher.  Just like if I walk into the darkest alley in the seediest part of town I don't deserve to be raped/mugged/murdered but it would still be a mistake to do so (barring other very good reasons for needing to do so.)

That's, uh, an unusual line of logic at the very least there. Do you think we should treat Muslims like they're liable to explode into apoplectic religious violence at a moment's notice as a policy? A quick google search indicates the existence of roughly 1.8 billion Muslims, so that would become a very nerve-racking attitude to take pretty quickly.