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[hector13]

It does seem silly to say that because they're situation isn't as bad as someone else's was a century ago, they don't deserve the right to say how they want to be governed.

[ChairmanPoo]

First aftershocks of yesterday's events: the goverment lacks a majority of seats to approve funding for the coming year.  They were hoping to gai  support from other parties, but after yesterday's events the Basque Nationalist Partyhas announced that they wont, so that has fallen through.

[da_nang]

It does seem silly to say that because they're situation isn't as bad as someone else's was a century ago, they don't deserve the right to say how they want to be governed.

Silly, or just common sense? I believe it's very important that one has to justify unilateral secession and reasonable justifications usually come from international precedents. And AFAIK there is no precedent for Catalonia's case. Not even Kosovo, the train of which has passed sometime in the 40 years since Franco's death.

Being able to declare unilateral secession for arbitrary reasons is an incredibly dangerous and unstable international system, as I doubt the world would be a good place for anyone if everyone and their dog can declare their apartment a sovereign, independent country by exercising the right to "self-determination of peoples", where "peoples" is arbitrary and doesn't even have a legal definition.

Thus Catalonia should either play the long game, get some friendly PR going in Spain and change the constitution with the general elections...

Or simply go to war and hope they win.

[smjjames]

It does seem silly to say that because they're situation isn't as bad as someone else's was a century ago, they don't deserve the right to say how they want to be governed.

Silly, or just common sense? I believe it's very important that one has to justify unilateral secession and reasonable justifications usually come from international precedents. And AFAIK there is no precedent for Catalonia's case. Not even Kosovo, the train of which has passed sometime in the 40 years since Franco's death.

To be fair, every countries independence case is unique in their own way and factors. There are common factors among various instances, yes, but no two are precisely the same.

Being able to declare unilateral secession for arbitrary reasons is an incredibly dangerous and unstable international system, as I doubt the world would be a good place for anyone if everyone and their dog can declare their apartment a sovereign, independent country by exercising the right to "self-determination of peoples", where "peoples" is arbitrary and doesn't even have a legal definition.

Thus Catalonia should either play the long game, get some friendly PR going in Spain and change the constitution with the general elections...

Or simply go to war and hope they win.

Declaring unilateral seccession via referendum because they are complaining about specific issues is about as arbitrary as revolting over tea taxes (guess who) or seceeding over slavery. If California went through with the seccession thing (we aren't going through with it anymore), over Trump, THAT would be arbitrary.

BTW, the Iraqi Kurds are doing something similar, but Iraq isn't throwing an absolute fit over it. Complaining, yes, and they are preoccupied by the ISIS fight, but they aren't acting the same way as Spain does. Iraq even seems reluctantly supportive if the Kurdish referendum does go through with a yes vote.

Also, you're pulling a massive slippery slope fallacy.

[scriver]

If one could only ever justify something by precedent then no new precedent would ever be established.

[Loud Whispers]

Scotland was legally given the ability to bilaterally secede when the British Parliament granted them the referendum, something that was much easier due to the lack of a constitution.

UK has a constitution, no one wrote it down

BTW, the Iraqi Kurds are doing something similar, but Iraq isn't throwing an absolute fit over it. Complaining, yes, and they are preoccupied by the ISIS fight, but they aren't acting the same way as Spain does. Iraq even seems reluctantly supportive if the Kurdish referendum does go through with a yes vote.
Also, you're pulling a massive slippery slope fallacy.

Iraq is throwing a massive fit over it, declaring it illegal and inviting their neighbours to come to their aid including Turkey. They'd act sooner if most of their sons weren't dead tbh, so I don't understand where this "supportive" idea comes from, Iraq is preparing for a consequential phase of civil war, they are not cool with this. Even the US & the UN are warning that now is not the time.

As for slippery slope, nations grow, then they collapse. Such is as it has been for time immemorial, but that doesn't mean people still don't fear the balkanization ;P

[MetalSlimeHunt]

While lawyers and leaders may not talk about it, it's important that they recognize that the law is always going to include a function of practicality. When the people refuse the law en mass, you have to recognize that and more or less adapt to it. Trying to refuse a person on the grounds that "the law is the law" is one thing, trying to refuse everybody on the grounds that "the law is the law" is how you get parliament burning and statue toppling.

Right now? The Spanish government is in the latter category.

[ChairmanPoo]

Well, it´s heading towards that, but not quite there yet, thankfully. There are still sane heads even among the conservatives. Today a resolution by the socialist party to form a board to discuss a reorganization of the territorial model passed with the votes of everyone (including both the PP and PDeCat, notably) but the nutcases at Ciudadanos, who are, well, nutcases, and the Catalonian nationalist party ERC, who are very, very angry.

We´ll see what comes out of it. It´s not the first time the Socialist Party promises to reorganize the autonomy system towards something more federal and then backs out (See my post above. In no small measure the Catalonian situation is happening because the SP promised just that in 2008). However, with the big scare that the Catalonians have given the parliament, it might actually come to pass this time.

[redwallzyl]

I think the current situation and may others can be summed up nicely by a phrase I read in an unrelated paper. The nation and the state are at each others throat.

[Helgoland]

Ciudadanos are nutcases?

[smjjames]

BTW, the Iraqi Kurds are doing something similar, but Iraq isn't throwing an absolute fit over it. Complaining, yes, and they are preoccupied by the ISIS fight, but they aren't acting the same way as Spain does. Iraq even seems reluctantly supportive if the Kurdish referendum does go through with a yes vote.
Also, you're pulling a massive slippery slope fallacy.

Iraq is throwing a massive fit over it, declaring it illegal and inviting their neighbours to come to their aid including Turkey. They'd act sooner if most of their sons weren't dead tbh, so I don't understand where this "supportive" idea comes from, Iraq is preparing for a consequential phase of civil war, they are not cool with this. Even the US & the UN are warning that now is not the time.
[/quote]

Lack of knowledge on it then, my mistake, and I do know that the US and Iraq are saying now is not the time, but the Kurds are having none of it and are pushing ahead with their referendum.

[SaberToothTiger]

that's mostly because iraq barely exists since the death of old boy saddam and can't do shit about the Kurds

i don't see iraq agreeing to any sort of kurdistan in the foreseeable future

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Right now, agreement is irrelevant. The Kurds have been preparing to fight for a Kurdistan for decades, and they know the moment has come more than anybody. They're so autonomous from Iraq they might as well be independent, we all know what's going down in Syria, and international relations towards Turkey are undergoing a shift. If you believe Trump is going to invade Iran, that makes every Kurdish territory up for grabs.

I can't imagine the Kurds so much as giving the time of day to someone asking that they cooperate with "their" governments at this point.

[SaberToothTiger]

and that means that we will have another arab-israeli war, but this time it's kurds vs. turkey & possibly Iran & possible intervention from arab states & whatever troops Bashar and whoever rules Iraq can spare

and this time kurdisrael doesn't have much international support

[martinuzz]

and that means that we will have another arab-israeli war, but this time it's kurds vs. turkey & possibly Iran & possible intervention from arab states & whatever troops Bashar and whoever rules Iraq can spare

and this time kurdisrael doesn't have much international support

what have you been smoking?

EDIT: meanwhile in Spain, the Spanish government has taken away all power and authority from the regional police in Catalonia, and will transfer 5000 police officers from the national police to Catalonia to take control.

In response, people have taken to the streets en masse in Barcelona, sleeping in the streets, and determined not to leave until the referendum date.